Clinton DID send Elian back. The Justice Department raid was conducted because of the very real probability that Lazaro would have won in court.

Juan Gonzales' wishes were as irrelevant as yours or mine. Clinton wanted the boy returned to Cuba, and that's the only reason it happened. Had Clinton wanted the boy to remain in the US, he'd still be here.

A.) how do you know that he accepts what he says he accepts?

Well, I just assume that other people speak for themselves and you don't. Fancy that.

B.) you just made a giant case for children not being allowed to make their own decisions until they reach the age of majority.

No. I didn't make this case. I was born into a world governed this way for time without memory.

Did Clinton ask Elian what he wanted before he sent him back?

No. Clinton didn't send Elian back. Elian's father made the decision. If Elian's father had decided otherwise, Elian would still be here. A state decision overruling the father is what you're advocating here.

What? Now we're back to the age of majority?

We never left.

Okay. Of course, like all the other Cubans boarding rafts in the dead of night to float to Miami, he'll totally just be able to leave if he wanted.

I don't know how free he'll be, but I do know that thousands of Mexicans and other foreign nationals make similar trips every year, probably thousands every day in fact, and they aren't violating Cuban law. They're violating U.S. law.

You have no clue what it is to become a dissident in a country like Cuba.

I don't claim this knowledge and never have. You have no clue what it is to be Elian's father or grandmother, much less Elian himself.

Morons used to come to the Soviet Union, observe select locations under close observation and come back to the U.S. extolling the virtues of communism because they didn't see any of the horror that refuges described.

So? I've been a libertarian since before I could vote. I've never been to the Soviet Union or extolled its virtues.

They even called us refuges "disgruntled". You remind me of these people, Martin. Sadly. Very sadly.

Strange how I've never called you or anyone else "disgruntled" yet I remind you of these people. You don't have a shred of evidence for this claim either, but you do have a problem distinguishing your imagination from reality.

If I put a gun to your head and forced you to say that you believed you were the prettiest ballerina in the world, then we should all believe that you think that because you said it.

So someone could be putting a gun to your head right now, and you can't prove that no one is doing it; therefore, nothing you say is believable, and your personal autonomy is forfeit? Why don't you just write me the check for $500,000 now. Any protest that you don't owe it to me clearly can't be trusted.

But we have tons and tons of evidence that these regimes do just that.

You have tons of evidence, and I'm only asking you for a shred, but I can't even get that out of you.

So, because you don't know what these people really think and you're only going off what they stated publicly, your evidence is suspect and not worth very much.

No, I don't pretend to have any evidence disproving a gun to the grandmothers' and father's heads. I can't prove that George W. Bush wasn't on the phone with Osama bin Laden on 9/10 planning 9/11 either. I can't prove countless negatives. Disproving conspiracy theories is not my burden. I won't lose bit of sleep over it tonight.

Before you go off the deep end again, I don't know for sure either (you'll ignore this bit in your response, I'm sure) but I'm not willing to accept your evidence on its face because it would require me to ignore a mountain of evidence that families are routinely coerced in these situations.

I don't offer any evidence that Elian's father and grandmothers weren't coerced other than their own testimony. It's their words you deny here, not mine. You don't believe what people tell you about their own will. Everyone else is going off the deep end while you have them all figured out. That must be reassuring.

I repeat, in a proper world where we knew the exact familial relationship between Elian and his father, and that relationship was not obviously abusive or life threatening then I would agree that the father has rights regarding Elian that no state can rightfully trump.

No. Parents enjoy a presumption. It's not necessary for anyone to prove that Juan Gonzalez is not an abusive father. It's necessary for someone to prove that he is abusive to overcome the presumption. That's the law in my neck of the woods anyway.

We know that both of Elian's grandmothers sided with the father, including the mother of Elian's dead mother. The best his detractors can do is claim that the grandmothers acted under duress, that they flew to Miami and then to Washington with guns at their backs, though the detractors don't have a shred of evidence to support this conspiracy theory either.

Again for your seeming obtuseness, we do know some facts and the known facts all point to the very real probability that there was no, or very little, relationship there, …

O.K. What is this evidence? Juan Gonzalez contacted his uncle in Miami before Elian arrived, before the accident at sea was reported. Both grandmothers supported him. During the asylum petition, the 11th Circuit found that Juan Gonzalez "continued to have regular and significant contact with his son" after separating from Elian's mother.

… and the very real probability that Elian would have a more privileged life and more potential to develop that life here in the USA is extremely high.

He'd likely have been richer here, but the same is true of most children south of the border. Are you advocating open borders now? All the Mexicans and Columbians and Guatemalans and Salvadorans and Venezualans are welcome too? They just need to find adoptive parents in the U.S. regardless of their own parents wishes?

Having seen communism, and its affect on individual people as well as the whole body of people in all respects, up close and personal I can tell you without doubt I would refer be a ordinary privileged slave in the USA than a highly placed official slave in a communist regime.

That's your choice, and I don't propose to take it from you. You're the one suggesting that Elian Gonzalez should be here despite the expressed wishes of his father and both of his grandmothers, not to mention his own expressed wishes. I don't prefer your state-ments to theirs.

Okay, first of all, I don't roll out of bed for less than $500,000. Second, it'll take a lot more get me to both roll out of bed and take a trip to Cuba.

It's what they say. Their own testimony is my evidence.

If I put a gun to your head and forced you to say that you believed you were the prettiest ballerina in the world, then we should all believe that you think that because you said it. How do we know that there's a gun to the family's and Elian's head? We don't. But we have tons and tons of evidence that these regimes do just that. The probability is high. So, because you don't know what these people really think and you're only going off what they stated publicly, your evidence is suspect and not worth very much. Before you go off the deep end again, I don't know for sure either (you'll ignore this bit in your response, I'm sure) but I'm not willing to accept your evidence on its face because it would require me to ignore a mountain of evidence that families are routinely coerced in these situations.

but Elian himself declares allegiance to it for the moment….. "Slavery" is your hysterical description of a condition that Elian himself expressly accepts.

A.) how do you know that he accepts what he says he accepts?

B.) you just made a giant case for children not being allowed to make their own decisions until they reach the age of majority. Did Clinton ask Elian what he wanted before he sent him back?

When Elian reaches the age of majority and ceases to accept his life in Cuba and may not leave the country, you let me know.

What? Now we're back to the age of majority? Okay. Of course, like all the other Cubans boarding rafts in the dead of night to float to Miami, he'll totally just be able to leave if he wanted. You have no clue what it is to become a dissident in a country like Cuba. Morons used to come to the Soviet Union, observe select locations under close observation and come back to the U.S. extolling the virtues of communism because they didn't see any of the horror that refuges described. They even called us refuges "disgruntled". You remind me of these people, Martin. Sadly. Very sadly.

I'm going to rename this thread "The Tragedy of Martin" in honour of you. Imagine sad music playing in the background as I type this in my gym clothes. I will now have to work out an extra hour to build up enough endorphins to offset my disappointment in you. Thanks a lot.