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	<title>Comments on: Health-Care Lies</title>
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		<title>By: Cheaper than Dirt - The Phrase Introduction - The Blog Planet</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/07/health-care-lies.html/comment-page-2#comment-57937</link>
		<dc:creator>Cheaper than Dirt - The Phrase Introduction - The Blog Planet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Aug 2009 10:31:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=5593#comment-57937</guid>
		<description>[...] Health-Care Lies [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Health-Care Lies [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Stop Un-American Healthcare</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/07/health-care-lies.html/comment-page-2#comment-56504</link>
		<dc:creator>Stop Un-American Healthcare</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Aug 2009 17:30:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=5593#comment-56504</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Cafe Hayek » Health-Care Lies...&lt;/strong&gt;

...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Cafe Hayek » Health-Care Lies&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Consumer-Driven Health Care</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/07/health-care-lies.html/comment-page-1#comment-56488</link>
		<dc:creator>Consumer-Driven Health Care</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Aug 2009 15:48:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=5593#comment-56488</guid>
		<description>[...] My GMU colleague Alex Tabarrok, over at Marginal Revolution, offers some important facts about consumer-driven health care.  These facts are consistent with my friends&#8217; happy experience with high-deductible, private health-care insurance. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] My GMU colleague Alex Tabarrok, over at Marginal Revolution, offers some important facts about consumer-driven health care.  These facts are consistent with my friends&#8217; happy experience with high-deductible, private health-care insurance. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/07/health-care-lies.html/comment-page-1#comment-176424</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Aug 2009 05:18:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=5593#comment-176424</guid>
		<description>Business people will always believe that profits cannot be won in a normal market by any means other than &quot;just&quot; means.  They can&#039;t help it.  It&#039;s part of the paradigm for 
American capitalism.  But I find myself rolling my eyes at the naivety of those who believe that the U.S. health insurance market is &quot;normal.&quot;  It is not &quot;normal.&quot;
  
Normal markets

In a normal market, any person who wishes to buy the commodity for sale may 
do so at the same price as any other person.  In a normal market, price is 
king.  The product or service is available to any purchaser with the means to 
pay the asking price.  Supply and demand establish price; that&#039;s a normal 
market.
 
The United States health insurance market is not, however, &quot;normal.&quot;  
Insurers actually have the right to refuse to sell their product, health 
insurance, to anyone they wish.  And how do they determine to whom they will 
sell?  They refuse to sell to the feeble, the ill -- the risky patient.  This 
is not a normal market.  It is a manipulated market.  It is a failed market.  
  
Price is not king; medical risk is king.  Insurers compete by insuring the 
healthiest populations -- by limiting the populations to whom they will sell 
insurance.  It is this limitation on the scope of the market that identifies 
 &quot;market failure.&quot;
 
Market failure 

Market failure is recognized by this triad: 1. when prices go up, 2. when 
profits go up, and 3. when availability goes down.  The continued increases 
in health insurance premiums are well documented (prices go up); the 
profitability of insurers is well documented (profits go up), and the steady 
increase in the number of uninsured is the manifestation of decreased 
availability.  
  
Insurers claim to compete in a very competitive market.  And they do compete; 
but only for the healthiest populations.  There is no competition to see how 
many diabetics they can enroll, or how many stroke victims they can insure.  
The notion of &quot;un-insurability&quot; has become so much a part of our landscape 
that willingly enrolling the ill in a health insurance plan sounds almost 
absurd.
  
And so I find myself both pitying, and disgusted at, those who believe 
the U.S. health insurance industry functions in a normal market, or that its 
profits are the result of normal competition.  They are believing and 
repeating the biggest lie in the business world today.  It&#039;s a subtle lie, to 
be sure, but still a lie.  
  
It amazes one even further, that the majority of American businesses, large 
and small,  who do compete in normal markets, have bought into the 
misinformed perception, the hype, that the health insurance industry 
functions in a normal market.  Most American businesses work hard to make 
their products available to as wide a market as possible.  They do not single 
out any populations as &quot;unworthy&quot; to buy their products.  They go to work and 
compete based on price; they build as large a market share as possible -- no 
limits.  
 
But for whatever reason, they placidly accept the rhetoric of the insurance 
industry as gospel and continue to pay ever higher premiums and accept ever 
diminishing benefits.  They struggle on, blinded by who knows what, believing 
that insurers function in the same kind of market they do, a normal market.  
  
But it just ain&#039;t so.  Insurers don&#039;t play by the same rules.
 
The remedy?  A normal market.  

Normal markets have been identified since before Adam Smith as having five 
essential characteristics: 
 
1. a uniform product (beans, steel, cotton, etc.), 
2. universal availability (the product is portable and anyone who wants it at 
market price can have it), 
3. readily available knowledge of product and price (its easy to know what 
you are getting, no fine print), 
4. easy entry to and exit from the market (thus establishing an adequate 
number of suppliers to make the market competitive), and 
5. price sensitivity (meaning that suppliers compete on price and not on some 
other measure, the way gangs compete for turf using guns, or insurers c ompete 
for privilege using lobbyists).
 
Market protection policies

Simple health related policies would &quot;normalize&quot; the U.S. health insurance 
market.  At first they look like, and sound like, &quot;patient protection 
policies,&quot; but in reality, they are &quot;market protection policies.&quot;
 
In order to have a uniform product, simply define a minimum benefits package.  
Other packages may be made available, but a standardized minimum package of 
benefits should be available to all.
 
In order to have portability and universal availability, simply enforce 
guaranteed issue and community ratings.  
 
(Enforcing guaranteed issue means that something must be done about 
free-riders.  In healthcare, as in few other industries, free-riders are 
potentially very, very expensive.  Free-riders refuse to contribute to the 
overall expense, but then expect first class service when they need it. 

The only real way around this problem is mandatory enrollment -- an individual 
mandate to enroll in a health insurance plan -- even if it is in the minimum 
plan.  Most uninsured can afford to pay a reasonable premium.  The large 
majority of uninsured households have at least one employed wage earner.  
Many have two.  But because some cannot afford premiums, this means 
subsidies.  But even these subsidies will be cheaper than the secondary costs 
associated with free-riders; the ongoing management costs of underwriting, 
cost shifting, and so on, and the medical costs of inappropriately accessed 
emergency care.)
 
In order to promote ready knowledge of product and price, once again, there 
is a simple answer.  It is to have a standard minimum benefits package.  It&#039;s 
standard.  There is no question about what&#039;s in it.  There are no hidden 
exclusions, or deductibles, or caps on care.  Everyone knows what&#039;s for sale.
 
Easy entry to and from the market means we have an adequate number of  
insurers to assure competition.  Does the U.S. have an adequate number?  Some 
say yes, some say no.  I don&#039;t know what that number needs to be, but it has 
to be &quot;enough to support choice.&quot;  A better choice, adequate choice, often 
means a better price.
 
Price sensitivity means, as stated before, that insurers compete on price and 
not on the ability to discriminate against those with illness.  Here again, 
enforcement of guaranteed issue and community rating, along with mandatory 
enrollment, eliminate the need to compete on parameters other than price.  A 
uniform benefits package means that insurers must provide the standard 
benefits package at competitive prices.
 
Summary

Insurers are entitled to a normal profit provided they earn it in a normal 
market.  But they should never delude themselves that the present health 
insurance market is a normal ma rket.  Insurers can and do select the 
populations they will insure.  That is not the same kind of competition that 
most businesses compete in.  It results in a failed market.
 
The remedy is simple.  It is &quot;normalization&quot; of the health insurance market.  
This can be accomplished by assuring Choice, enforcing Mandatory enrollment, 
Guaranteed issue, and Community rating, and defining a Uniform benefits 
package.  Almost any healthcare system that includes these five “market 
protection policies” will succeed.

Sel Fillerup</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Business people will always believe that profits cannot be won in a normal market by any means other than &#8220;just&#8221; means.  They can&#8217;t help it.  It&#8217;s part of the paradigm for<br />
American capitalism.  But I find myself rolling my eyes at the naivety of those who believe that the U.S. health insurance market is &#8220;normal.&#8221;  It is not &#8220;normal.&#8221;</p>
<p>Normal markets</p>
<p>In a normal market, any person who wishes to buy the commodity for sale may<br />
do so at the same price as any other person.  In a normal market, price is<br />
king.  The product or service is available to any purchaser with the means to<br />
pay the asking price.  Supply and demand establish price; that&#8217;s a normal<br />
market.</p>
<p>The United States health insurance market is not, however, &#8220;normal.&#8221;<br />
Insurers actually have the right to refuse to sell their product, health<br />
insurance, to anyone they wish.  And how do they determine to whom they will<br />
sell?  They refuse to sell to the feeble, the ill &#8212; the risky patient.  This<br />
is not a normal market.  It is a manipulated market.  It is a failed market.  </p>
<p>Price is not king; medical risk is king.  Insurers compete by insuring the<br />
healthiest populations &#8212; by limiting the populations to whom they will sell<br />
insurance.  It is this limitation on the scope of the market that identifies<br />
 &#8220;market failure.&#8221;</p>
<p>Market failure </p>
<p>Market failure is recognized by this triad: 1. when prices go up, 2. when<br />
profits go up, and 3. when availability goes down.  The continued increases<br />
in health insurance premiums are well documented (prices go up); the<br />
profitability of insurers is well documented (profits go up), and the steady<br />
increase in the number of uninsured is the manifestation of decreased<br />
availability.  </p>
<p>Insurers claim to compete in a very competitive market.  And they do compete;<br />
but only for the healthiest populations.  There is no competition to see how<br />
many diabetics they can enroll, or how many stroke victims they can insure.<br />
The notion of &#8220;un-insurability&#8221; has become so much a part of our landscape<br />
that willingly enrolling the ill in a health insurance plan sounds almost<br />
absurd.</p>
<p>And so I find myself both pitying, and disgusted at, those who believe<br />
the U.S. health insurance industry functions in a normal market, or that its<br />
profits are the result of normal competition.  They are believing and<br />
repeating the biggest lie in the business world today.  It&#8217;s a subtle lie, to<br />
be sure, but still a lie.  </p>
<p>It amazes one even further, that the majority of American businesses, large<br />
and small,  who do compete in normal markets, have bought into the<br />
misinformed perception, the hype, that the health insurance industry<br />
functions in a normal market.  Most American businesses work hard to make<br />
their products available to as wide a market as possible.  They do not single<br />
out any populations as &#8220;unworthy&#8221; to buy their products.  They go to work and<br />
compete based on price; they build as large a market share as possible &#8212; no<br />
limits.  </p>
<p>But for whatever reason, they placidly accept the rhetoric of the insurance<br />
industry as gospel and continue to pay ever higher premiums and accept ever<br />
diminishing benefits.  They struggle on, blinded by who knows what, believing<br />
that insurers function in the same kind of market they do, a normal market.  </p>
<p>But it just ain&#8217;t so.  Insurers don&#8217;t play by the same rules.</p>
<p>The remedy?  A normal market.  </p>
<p>Normal markets have been identified since before Adam Smith as having five<br />
essential characteristics: </p>
<p>1. a uniform product (beans, steel, cotton, etc.),<br />
2. universal availability (the product is portable and anyone who wants it at<br />
market price can have it),<br />
3. readily available knowledge of product and price (its easy to know what<br />
you are getting, no fine print),<br />
4. easy entry to and exit from the market (thus establishing an adequate<br />
number of suppliers to make the market competitive), and<br />
5. price sensitivity (meaning that suppliers compete on price and not on some<br />
other measure, the way gangs compete for turf using guns, or insurers c ompete<br />
for privilege using lobbyists).</p>
<p>Market protection policies</p>
<p>Simple health related policies would &#8220;normalize&#8221; the U.S. health insurance<br />
market.  At first they look like, and sound like, &#8220;patient protection<br />
policies,&#8221; but in reality, they are &#8220;market protection policies.&#8221;</p>
<p>In order to have a uniform product, simply define a minimum benefits package.<br />
Other packages may be made available, but a standardized minimum package of<br />
benefits should be available to all.</p>
<p>In order to have portability and universal availability, simply enforce<br />
guaranteed issue and community ratings.  </p>
<p>(Enforcing guaranteed issue means that something must be done about<br />
free-riders.  In healthcare, as in few other industries, free-riders are<br />
potentially very, very expensive.  Free-riders refuse to contribute to the<br />
overall expense, but then expect first class service when they need it. </p>
<p>The only real way around this problem is mandatory enrollment &#8212; an individual<br />
mandate to enroll in a health insurance plan &#8212; even if it is in the minimum<br />
plan.  Most uninsured can afford to pay a reasonable premium.  The large<br />
majority of uninsured households have at least one employed wage earner.<br />
Many have two.  But because some cannot afford premiums, this means<br />
subsidies.  But even these subsidies will be cheaper than the secondary costs<br />
associated with free-riders; the ongoing management costs of underwriting,<br />
cost shifting, and so on, and the medical costs of inappropriately accessed<br />
emergency care.)</p>
<p>In order to promote ready knowledge of product and price, once again, there<br />
is a simple answer.  It is to have a standard minimum benefits package.  It&#8217;s<br />
standard.  There is no question about what&#8217;s in it.  There are no hidden<br />
exclusions, or deductibles, or caps on care.  Everyone knows what&#8217;s for sale.</p>
<p>Easy entry to and from the market means we have an adequate number of<br />
insurers to assure competition.  Does the U.S. have an adequate number?  Some<br />
say yes, some say no.  I don&#8217;t know what that number needs to be, but it has<br />
to be &#8220;enough to support choice.&#8221;  A better choice, adequate choice, often<br />
means a better price.</p>
<p>Price sensitivity means, as stated before, that insurers compete on price and<br />
not on the ability to discriminate against those with illness.  Here again,<br />
enforcement of guaranteed issue and community rating, along with mandatory<br />
enrollment, eliminate the need to compete on parameters other than price.  A<br />
uniform benefits package means that insurers must provide the standard<br />
benefits package at competitive prices.</p>
<p>Summary</p>
<p>Insurers are entitled to a normal profit provided they earn it in a normal<br />
market.  But they should never delude themselves that the present health<br />
insurance market is a normal ma rket.  Insurers can and do select the<br />
populations they will insure.  That is not the same kind of competition that<br />
most businesses compete in.  It results in a failed market.</p>
<p>The remedy is simple.  It is &#8220;normalization&#8221; of the health insurance market.<br />
This can be accomplished by assuring Choice, enforcing Mandatory enrollment,<br />
Guaranteed issue, and Community rating, and defining a Uniform benefits<br />
package.  Almost any healthcare system that includes these five “market<br />
protection policies” will succeed.</p>
<p>Sel Fillerup</p>
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		<title>By: Nathan Scott</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/07/health-care-lies.html/comment-page-1#comment-176159</link>
		<dc:creator>Nathan Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Aug 2009 16:29:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=5593#comment-176159</guid>
		<description>http://cafehayek.com/images/old/6a00d834518ccc69e2011570219fdf970c-800wi</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://cafehayek.com/images/old/6a00d834518ccc69e2011570219fdf970c-800wi" rel="nofollow">http://cafehayek.com/images/old/6a00d834518ccc69e2011570219fdf970c-800wi</a></p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/07/health-care-lies.html/comment-page-1#comment-176049</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Aug 2009 02:39:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=5593#comment-176049</guid>
		<description>Most of the regulations your group insurance is subject to comes from state regulation, as only self-funded plans under ERISA are subject to federal regulation, unless you are over 65.  
Further, your friend must be blessed with good health, and he must make a lot of money.  Should he be struck by a serious illness, his out of pocket costs would be far greater than the $12,000 potential maximum you cite.  The deductible is usually only the beginning, as there are copayments, coinsurance, and out of pocket expenses for things not covered.  And remember, a serious illness can span a period of years, meaning he could spend a lot of money per year, trying to regain his health.  Even $12,000 per year is what, 15-20% of an average American&#039;s earnings?  Most people could not afford to sustain these kinds of costs.  And in the private market, insurance with a $1000 - $2000 deductible will cost a family a good $1200 / month.  This is unsustainable.
Should you sustain a serious chronic health problem, you will understand how much money you can shell out, even with good coverage.  And the claims mess, with incorrect filings, improper denials, etc, will be like a new full-time job.  You&#039;ll spend more time on the phone than you can believe trying to make sense of it all.....doesn&#039;t matter who the insurer is.  There is an inherent conflict of interest built into the system which involves for-profit insurers.  
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Most of the regulations your group insurance is subject to comes from state regulation, as only self-funded plans under ERISA are subject to federal regulation, unless you are over 65.<br />
Further, your friend must be blessed with good health, and he must make a lot of money.  Should he be struck by a serious illness, his out of pocket costs would be far greater than the $12,000 potential maximum you cite.  The deductible is usually only the beginning, as there are copayments, coinsurance, and out of pocket expenses for things not covered.  And remember, a serious illness can span a period of years, meaning he could spend a lot of money per year, trying to regain his health.  Even $12,000 per year is what, 15-20% of an average American&#8217;s earnings?  Most people could not afford to sustain these kinds of costs.  And in the private market, insurance with a $1000 &#8211; $2000 deductible will cost a family a good $1200 / month.  This is unsustainable.<br />
Should you sustain a serious chronic health problem, you will understand how much money you can shell out, even with good coverage.  And the claims mess, with incorrect filings, improper denials, etc, will be like a new full-time job.  You&#8217;ll spend more time on the phone than you can believe trying to make sense of it all&#8230;..doesn&#8217;t matter who the insurer is.  There is an inherent conflict of interest built into the system which involves for-profit insurers.</p>
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		<title>By: Liberal</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/07/health-care-lies.html/comment-page-1#comment-175890</link>
		<dc:creator>Liberal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Aug 2009 18:05:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=5593#comment-175890</guid>
		<description>I noted how Krugman&#039;s evidence is &#039;anecdotal&#039;, whereas yours is &#039;real world&#039;! There are a lot of holes to poke in Krugman&#039;s piece, as some of his lines come dangerously close to the textbook definition of socialism, but your ad hominem attack almost legitimizes what he has written. 
The problem with what Krugman says is that there is less evidence and more thesis in his main statement is &#039;works very badly&#039;, which is hardly a substitute for logic. His statement that government intervention is paramount is not backed up by evidence or logic.
What really annoys me about your view on health care is that you never attack the fact that the salaries of doctors in this country are not market-adjusted. They are artificially inflated by the AMA as a lobbying institution. Doctors from other countries are not allowed to directly practice medicine here. Even experienced ones are forced to go through three years of residency, which is more of a deterrent than anything else. Government protectionism of markets is abhorrent; and a real fiscal conservative should be railing against this. I would love to hear your opinion on this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I noted how Krugman&#8217;s evidence is &#8216;anecdotal&#8217;, whereas yours is &#8216;real world&#8217;! There are a lot of holes to poke in Krugman&#8217;s piece, as some of his lines come dangerously close to the textbook definition of socialism, but your ad hominem attack almost legitimizes what he has written.<br />
The problem with what Krugman says is that there is less evidence and more thesis in his main statement is &#8216;works very badly&#8217;, which is hardly a substitute for logic. His statement that government intervention is paramount is not backed up by evidence or logic.<br />
What really annoys me about your view on health care is that you never attack the fact that the salaries of doctors in this country are not market-adjusted. They are artificially inflated by the AMA as a lobbying institution. Doctors from other countries are not allowed to directly practice medicine here. Even experienced ones are forced to go through three years of residency, which is more of a deterrent than anything else. Government protectionism of markets is abhorrent; and a real fiscal conservative should be railing against this. I would love to hear your opinion on this.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/07/health-care-lies.html/comment-page-1#comment-175773</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 05:34:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=5593#comment-175773</guid>
		<description>ArrowSmith:
I do not have numbers at hand.  The numbers I quote are from memory 
gong back to early in the Clinton Administration.  Still, these 
numbers should not be hard to come by.  I am sure the CBO has the 
numbers for the government end.

3% overhead is just plain fantasy.  Medicare has, of course, exported 
to the provider much of its overhead (one reason why docs do not want 
to take Medicare if they do not have to).  Even so, there is no 
government bureaucracy anywhere that could operate at that level of 
efficiency.  I suspect someone is not counting everything.

SgtDad
As Disqus noted,</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ArrowSmith:<br />
I do not have numbers at hand.  The numbers I quote are from memory<br />
gong back to early in the Clinton Administration.  Still, these<br />
numbers should not be hard to come by.  I am sure the CBO has the<br />
numbers for the government end.</p>
<p>3% overhead is just plain fantasy.  Medicare has, of course, exported<br />
to the provider much of its overhead (one reason why docs do not want<br />
to take Medicare if they do not have to).  Even so, there is no<br />
government bureaucracy anywhere that could operate at that level of<br />
efficiency.  I suspect someone is not counting everything.</p>
<p>SgtDad<br />
As Disqus noted,</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/07/health-care-lies.html/comment-page-1#comment-175772</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 05:26:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=5593#comment-175772</guid>
		<description>Yeah, I know it bans HSA&#039;s and I am sick about it. They were so awesome, I
wish they had more time to take off.

I have to wonder, where in the constitution it allows the Feds to wholesale
take over industries and outlaw peaceful transactions by consenting adults.

My guess is that the right to enterprise is covered under the 9th amendment,
in the bill of rights.

-Tim</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, I know it bans HSA&#8217;s and I am sick about it. They were so awesome, I<br />
wish they had more time to take off.</p>
<p>I have to wonder, where in the constitution it allows the Feds to wholesale<br />
take over industries and outlaw peaceful transactions by consenting adults.</p>
<p>My guess is that the right to enterprise is covered under the 9th amendment,<br />
in the bill of rights.</p>
<p>-Tim</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/07/health-care-lies.html/comment-page-1#comment-175754</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 03:08:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=5593#comment-175754</guid>
		<description>ArrowSmith:
I do not have numbers at hand.  The numbers I quote are from memory 
gong back to early in the Clinton Administration.  Still, these 
numbers should not be hard to come by.  I am sure the CBO has the 
numbers for the government end.

3% overhead is just plain fantasy.  Medicare has, of course, exported 
to the provider much of its overhead (one reason why docs do not want 
to take Medicare if they do not have to).  Even so, there is no 
government bureaucracy anywhere that could operate at that level of 
efficiency.  I suspect someone is not counting everything.

SgtDad
As Disqus noted,</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ArrowSmith:<br />
I do not have numbers at hand.  The numbers I quote are from memory<br />
gong back to early in the Clinton Administration.  Still, these<br />
numbers should not be hard to come by.  I am sure the CBO has the<br />
numbers for the government end.</p>
<p>3% overhead is just plain fantasy.  Medicare has, of course, exported<br />
to the provider much of its overhead (one reason why docs do not want<br />
to take Medicare if they do not have to).  Even so, there is no<br />
government bureaucracy anywhere that could operate at that level of<br />
efficiency.  I suspect someone is not counting everything.</p>
<p>SgtDad<br />
As Disqus noted,</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/07/health-care-lies.html/comment-page-1#comment-175753</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 03:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=5593#comment-175753</guid>
		<description>Yeah, I know it bans HSA&#039;s and I am sick about it. They were so awesome, I
wish they had more time to take off.

I have to wonder, where in the constitution it allows the Feds to wholesale
take over industries and outlaw peaceful transactions by consenting adults.

My guess is that the right to enterprise is covered under the 9th amendment,
in the bill of rights.

-Tim</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, I know it bans HSA&#8217;s and I am sick about it. They were so awesome, I<br />
wish they had more time to take off.</p>
<p>I have to wonder, where in the constitution it allows the Feds to wholesale<br />
take over industries and outlaw peaceful transactions by consenting adults.</p>
<p>My guess is that the right to enterprise is covered under the 9th amendment,<br />
in the bill of rights.</p>
<p>-Tim</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/07/health-care-lies.html/comment-page-1#comment-175751</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 02:39:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=5593#comment-175751</guid>
		<description>ArrowSmith:
I do not have numbers at hand.  The numbers I quote are from memory 
gong back to early in the Clinton Administration.  Still, these 
numbers should not be hard to come by.  I am sure the CBO has the 
numbers for the government end.

3% overhead is just plain fantasy.  Medicare has, of course, exported 
to the provider much of its overhead (one reason why docs do not want 
to take Medicare if they do not have to).  Even so, there is no 
government bureaucracy anywhere that could operate at that level of 
efficiency.  I suspect someone is not counting everything.

SgtDad
As Disqus noted,</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ArrowSmith:<br />
I do not have numbers at hand.  The numbers I quote are from memory<br />
gong back to early in the Clinton Administration.  Still, these<br />
numbers should not be hard to come by.  I am sure the CBO has the<br />
numbers for the government end.</p>
<p>3% overhead is just plain fantasy.  Medicare has, of course, exported<br />
to the provider much of its overhead (one reason why docs do not want<br />
to take Medicare if they do not have to).  Even so, there is no<br />
government bureaucracy anywhere that could operate at that level of<br />
efficiency.  I suspect someone is not counting everything.</p>
<p>SgtDad<br />
As Disqus noted,</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/07/health-care-lies.html/comment-page-1#comment-175748</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 02:30:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=5593#comment-175748</guid>
		<description>Yeah, I know it bans HSA&#039;s and I am sick about it. They were so awesome, I
wish they had more time to take off.

I have to wonder, where in the constitution it allows the Feds to wholesale
take over industries and outlaw peaceful transactions by consenting adults.

My guess is that the right to enterprise is covered under the 9th amendment,
in the bill of rights.

-Tim</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, I know it bans HSA&#8217;s and I am sick about it. They were so awesome, I<br />
wish they had more time to take off.</p>
<p>I have to wonder, where in the constitution it allows the Feds to wholesale<br />
take over industries and outlaw peaceful transactions by consenting adults.</p>
<p>My guess is that the right to enterprise is covered under the 9th amendment,<br />
in the bill of rights.</p>
<p>-Tim</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Methinks</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/07/health-care-lies.html/comment-page-1#comment-175687</link>
		<dc:creator>Methinks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Aug 2009 16:28:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=5593#comment-175687</guid>
		<description>dang.  Can&#039;t even read the thread anymore.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>dang.  Can&#8217;t even read the thread anymore.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Underwriterguy</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/07/health-care-lies.html/comment-page-1#comment-175669</link>
		<dc:creator>Underwriterguy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Aug 2009 14:14:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=5593#comment-175669</guid>
		<description>Methinks, I sent you an email asking for more info. Hope to hear from you and that VV joins as well. He is a real stickler for Libertarian principles and has made me think about some of my &quot;practical&quot; approaches.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Methinks, I sent you an email asking for more info. Hope to hear from you and that VV joins as well. He is a real stickler for Libertarian principles and has made me think about some of my &#8220;practical&#8221; approaches.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/07/health-care-lies.html/comment-page-1#comment-175652</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Aug 2009 10:28:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=5593#comment-175652</guid>
		<description>Haha - who&#039;s the one frothing at the mouth now, Methinks?  You&#039;re the one getting apoplectic over the fact that I excluded &quot;he said&quot; from your quote, even though that didn&#039;t change the substance of it at all (unlike YOUR changes to his quote).

Keep listening to the interview until it dawns on you - he does want to redistribute with the legislature.  The only thing he ever said was wrong with the constitution was that it didn&#039;t outlaw slavery.  That&#039;s what this whole thing started about - you whining that he thought the constitution is flawed.  How is it a strawman or a tangential argument that I focus on what he realy said about the constitution?
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Haha &#8211; who&#8217;s the one frothing at the mouth now, Methinks?  You&#8217;re the one getting apoplectic over the fact that I excluded &#8220;he said&#8221; from your quote, even though that didn&#8217;t change the substance of it at all (unlike YOUR changes to his quote).</p>
<p>Keep listening to the interview until it dawns on you &#8211; he does want to redistribute with the legislature.  The only thing he ever said was wrong with the constitution was that it didn&#8217;t outlaw slavery.  That&#8217;s what this whole thing started about &#8211; you whining that he thought the constitution is flawed.  How is it a strawman or a tangential argument that I focus on what he realy said about the constitution?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/07/health-care-lies.html/comment-page-1#comment-175641</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Aug 2009 09:59:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=5593#comment-175641</guid>
		<description>Sure - and we certainly the people who have been debating this could probably craft several plans in a week and be ready to go with them.

But the country as a whole, and the Congress, hasn&#039;t been debating it for that long in a purposive way.  Some policy wonk could draw you up a plan in five minutes, and it may potentially even be a good one - but we have to argue about whether it&#039;s a good plan, and since Congress will inevitably change the policy wonk&#039;s plan, we need to think through whether those changes will have good or bad consequences. 

People have been talking about this for quite a while - but the country as a whole needs to chew on it I think.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sure &#8211; and we certainly the people who have been debating this could probably craft several plans in a week and be ready to go with them.</p>
<p>But the country as a whole, and the Congress, hasn&#8217;t been debating it for that long in a purposive way.  Some policy wonk could draw you up a plan in five minutes, and it may potentially even be a good one &#8211; but we have to argue about whether it&#8217;s a good plan, and since Congress will inevitably change the policy wonk&#8217;s plan, we need to think through whether those changes will have good or bad consequences. </p>
<p>People have been talking about this for quite a while &#8211; but the country as a whole needs to chew on it I think.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/07/health-care-lies.html/comment-page-1#comment-175619</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Aug 2009 00:27:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=5593#comment-175619</guid>
		<description>Try Nutrisystems new lbog weightloss program.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Try Nutrisystems new lbog weightloss program.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/07/health-care-lies.html/comment-page-1#comment-175617</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Aug 2009 00:25:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=5593#comment-175617</guid>
		<description>Hurry R2!  The walls are closing!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hurry R2!  The walls are closing!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/07/health-care-lies.html/comment-page-1#comment-175616</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Aug 2009 00:24:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=5593#comment-175616</guid>
		<description>Nothing to  say.  I&#039;m just curious to see how squished a post can get with this new blog format.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nothing to  say.  I&#8217;m just curious to see how squished a post can get with this new blog format.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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