Comments on: Health care reform http://cafehayek.com/2009/07/health-care-reform.html where orders emerge Mon, 22 Mar 2010 01:49:42 -0400 http://wordpress.org/?v=abc hourly 1 By: Buy zolpidem. http://cafehayek.com/2009/07/health-care-reform.html/comment-page-1#comment-55759 Buy zolpidem. Thu, 13 Aug 2009 08:24:47 +0000 http://70.32.86.159/2009/07/health-care-reform.html#comment-55759 <strong>Zolpidem....</strong> Zolpidem and sleepwalking. Zolpidem.... Zolpidem….

Zolpidem and sleepwalking. Zolpidem….

]]> By: Adipex phentermine cash on delivery phentermine mg. http://cafehayek.com/2009/07/health-care-reform.html/comment-page-1#comment-55639 Adipex phentermine cash on delivery phentermine mg. Thu, 13 Aug 2009 01:51:21 +0000 http://70.32.86.159/2009/07/health-care-reform.html#comment-55639 <strong>Purchase adipex online without prescription....</strong> Adipex phentermine vs. Phentermine adipex. Adipex. Adipex dangers. Adipex no prescription. Adipex overnight. Adipex p phentermine vs.... Purchase adipex online without prescription….

Adipex phentermine vs. Phentermine adipex. Adipex. Adipex dangers. Adipex no prescription. Adipex overnight. Adipex p phentermine vs….

]]> By: vikingvista http://cafehayek.com/2009/07/health-care-reform.html/comment-page-1#comment-52347 vikingvista Tue, 30 Nov 1999 07:00:00 +0000 http://70.32.86.159/2009/07/health-care-reform.html#comment-52347 <p>The complexity alone isn't frightening. Just try charting out the complexity any large highly product market. The complexity of the market may even defy comprehension.</p> The complexity alone isn't frightening. Just try charting out the complexity any large highly product market. The complexity of the market may even defy comprehension.

]]> By: Speedmaster http://cafehayek.com/2009/07/health-care-reform.html/comment-page-1#comment-52348 Speedmaster Tue, 30 Nov 1999 07:00:00 +0000 http://70.32.86.159/2009/07/health-care-reform.html#comment-52348 <p>Absolutely scary!</p> Absolutely scary!

]]> By: tw http://cafehayek.com/2009/07/health-care-reform.html/comment-page-1#comment-52349 tw Tue, 30 Nov 1999 07:00:00 +0000 http://70.32.86.159/2009/07/health-care-reform.html#comment-52349 <p>We actually discussed the graphic today at work (health care company), and my point all along was doesn't the government-influenced/regulated industry already look like this???</p> We actually discussed the graphic today at work (health care company), and my point all along was doesn't the government-influenced/regulated industry already look like this???

]]> By: Methinks http://cafehayek.com/2009/07/health-care-reform.html/comment-page-1#comment-52350 Methinks Tue, 30 Nov 1999 07:00:00 +0000 http://70.32.86.159/2009/07/health-care-reform.html#comment-52350 <p>True, Vikingvista. But in a complex market, everyone is working in their best interest and their best interest is to get the job done so they can be paid and remain competitive. Government workers' best interest is to do as little as possible and to monetize the small amount of power they have. Thus, I submit that when government creates complexity where there shouldn't be any, it is much worse than a naturally occurring complex market.</p> True, Vikingvista. But in a complex market, everyone is working in their best interest and their best interest is to get the job done so they can be paid and remain competitive. Government workers' best interest is to do as little as possible and to monetize the small amount of power they have. Thus, I submit that when government creates complexity where there shouldn't be any, it is much worse than a naturally occurring complex market.

]]> By: vikingvista http://cafehayek.com/2009/07/health-care-reform.html/comment-page-1#comment-52351 vikingvista Tue, 30 Nov 1999 07:00:00 +0000 http://70.32.86.159/2009/07/health-care-reform.html#comment-52351 <p>Thanks for a great reply, Methinks. I agree entirely. It's primarily the incentives, not the complexity.</p> Thanks for a great reply, Methinks. I agree entirely. It's primarily the incentives, not the complexity.

]]> By: BoscoH http://cafehayek.com/2009/07/health-care-reform.html/comment-page-1#comment-52352 BoscoH Tue, 30 Nov 1999 07:00:00 +0000 http://70.32.86.159/2009/07/health-care-reform.html#comment-52352 <p>This chart thing worked when Hillary was in charge of fixing health care. The only thing that will work this time is to convince Dems that they are going to shoot themselves in the feet by way of their derriers. It wouldn't be a lie. They are going to do that, and the pathetic Republicans are going to win big in 2010 because of this and cap & trade and the lingering depression. But will enough Dems see enough light to steer this in a more marginal, less destructive direction. That's the question on the table this week.</p> This chart thing worked when Hillary was in charge of fixing health care. The only thing that will work this time is to convince Dems that they are going to shoot themselves in the feet by way of their derriers. It wouldn't be a lie. They are going to do that, and the pathetic Republicans are going to win big in 2010 because of this and cap & trade and the lingering depression. But will enough Dems see enough light to steer this in a more marginal, less destructive direction. That's the question on the table this week.

]]> By: tom harvey http://cafehayek.com/2009/07/health-care-reform.html/comment-page-1#comment-52353 tom harvey Tue, 30 Nov 1999 07:00:00 +0000 http://70.32.86.159/2009/07/health-care-reform.html#comment-52353 <p>Next up: Universal Pencil Coverage. <i>That's</i> going to be a complicated chart.<br /> </p> Next up: Universal Pencil Coverage. That's going to be a complicated chart.

]]> By: anon http://cafehayek.com/2009/07/health-care-reform.html/comment-page-1#comment-52354 anon Tue, 30 Nov 1999 07:00:00 +0000 http://70.32.86.159/2009/07/health-care-reform.html#comment-52354 <p>I think executive and legistlative branches will get their wake up call when the general working public finally realizes how much of "universal health care" is just "we make it law that you must have health insurance or pay a steep fine."</p> I think executive and legistlative branches will get their wake up call when the general working public finally realizes how much of "universal health care" is just "we make it law that you must have health insurance or pay a steep fine."

]]> By: JohnK http://cafehayek.com/2009/07/health-care-reform.html/comment-page-1#comment-52355 JohnK Tue, 30 Nov 1999 07:00:00 +0000 http://70.32.86.159/2009/07/health-care-reform.html#comment-52355 <p><i>I think executive and legistlative branches will get their wake up call</i></p> <p>They already got their wake up call when they realized they can ramrod huge bills through without reading them by declaring an emergency.<br /> All they have to do is declare a health care emergency, ramrod the bill through, and voila we've got government health care.</p> <p>We've crossed the point of no return.</p> I think executive and legistlative branches will get their wake up call

They already got their wake up call when they realized they can ramrod huge bills through without reading them by declaring an emergency.
All they have to do is declare a health care emergency, ramrod the bill through, and voila we've got government health care.

We've crossed the point of no return.

]]> By: SaulOhio http://cafehayek.com/2009/07/health-care-reform.html/comment-page-1#comment-52356 SaulOhio Tue, 30 Nov 1999 07:00:00 +0000 http://70.32.86.159/2009/07/health-care-reform.html#comment-52356 <p>Yes, a free market is complex. But it has one simplicity over the chart. The chart shows the consumers and providers, both very small icons, on opposite sides of the chart, separated by a vast maze of lines and squares representing government agencies and insurance companies. In a free market system, there would be simply a straight line between them. Insurance companies would be off to the side. </p> <p>Yes a free market is a complex system, but all this government interference makes it even more complex. </p> Yes, a free market is complex. But it has one simplicity over the chart. The chart shows the consumers and providers, both very small icons, on opposite sides of the chart, separated by a vast maze of lines and squares representing government agencies and insurance companies. In a free market system, there would be simply a straight line between them. Insurance companies would be off to the side.

Yes a free market is a complex system, but all this government interference makes it even more complex.

]]> By: Daniel Kuehn http://cafehayek.com/2009/07/health-care-reform.html/comment-page-1#comment-52357 Daniel Kuehn Tue, 30 Nov 1999 07:00:00 +0000 http://70.32.86.159/2009/07/health-care-reform.html#comment-52357 <p>vikingvista -<br /> RE: "The complexity alone isn't frightening. Just try charting out the complexity any large highly product market. The complexity of the market may even defy comprehension."</p> <p>Good point, and my first thought too. Complex systems can appear daunting at first, but that doesn't mean they don't operate smoothly. And that's really the question - will it operate smoothly or will it rule by clunky bureaucratic fiat. It's too early to judge.</p> <p>I also think if you have an agenda you can plot out a complex chart of anything. I could probably draw one up that is equally complex as this one, just showing how things work in my company alone (a private firm - for some reason a lot of people on here have got the impression I work for the government). </p> <p>And also - even if it were a simple flow chart, that could be the scariest one of all. Consider the following:</p> <p>[Government board deciding who gets care] -> [consumers get what they're told]</p> <p>It's not complex! It's not confusing! But it's absolutely terrible.</p> vikingvista -
RE: "The complexity alone isn't frightening. Just try charting out the complexity any large highly product market. The complexity of the market may even defy comprehension."

Good point, and my first thought too. Complex systems can appear daunting at first, but that doesn't mean they don't operate smoothly. And that's really the question – will it operate smoothly or will it rule by clunky bureaucratic fiat. It's too early to judge.

I also think if you have an agenda you can plot out a complex chart of anything. I could probably draw one up that is equally complex as this one, just showing how things work in my company alone (a private firm – for some reason a lot of people on here have got the impression I work for the government).

And also – even if it were a simple flow chart, that could be the scariest one of all. Consider the following:

[Government board deciding who gets care] -> [consumers get what they're told]

It's not complex! It's not confusing! But it's absolutely terrible.

]]> By: Daniel Kuehn http://cafehayek.com/2009/07/health-care-reform.html/comment-page-1#comment-52358 Daniel Kuehn Tue, 30 Nov 1999 07:00:00 +0000 http://70.32.86.159/2009/07/health-care-reform.html#comment-52358 <p>Methinks -<br /> RE: "Government workers' best interest is to do as little as possible and to monetize the small amount of power they have."</p> <p>I love public choice theory, but this strikes me as an abuse of the more nuanced critiques that guys like Buchanan raised. I'm not trying to pick a fight, but I think operating off of these sorts of idealized forms doesn't really add much insight. </p> Methinks -
RE: "Government workers' best interest is to do as little as possible and to monetize the small amount of power they have."

I love public choice theory, but this strikes me as an abuse of the more nuanced critiques that guys like Buchanan raised. I'm not trying to pick a fight, but I think operating off of these sorts of idealized forms doesn't really add much insight.

]]> By: gappy http://cafehayek.com/2009/07/health-care-reform.html/comment-page-1#comment-52359 gappy Tue, 30 Nov 1999 07:00:00 +0000 http://70.32.86.159/2009/07/health-care-reform.html#comment-52359 <p>Sorry, but I don't see the point of this post. First and foremost, if you think this chart is horrific, you have never seen a serious workflow chart done in Visio. Any engineer working in chip design, manufacturing, software, BPR, has seen much, much worse than this. If you trace information and decision flows within GMU, my bet is will get a much more complex picture than the one reviled by you, Drudge, Glenn Beck etc. Summing up: the chart may seem horrific, but it's probably much simpler than an accurate depiction of the *CURRENT* system (as you noted). And it's much simpler than almost *ANY* organization of decent size (as perhaps Hayek would have noted). Vikingvista noted above the intrinsic complexity of markets, and Methink noted that they are self-organizing systems. What both failed to acknowledge it that also non-market organizations (e.g., a large IT company) may have very complex *designed* structures. Is that a disqualifying feature of a system? No. Organizations design, or engineer they process to address a need. If you want to criticize the Health Care Reform, don't do it on account of its perceived complexity, but based on an analysis of the incentives of the parties involved. </p> <p>Two more points, mostly minor. First, the chart is done incompetently. You can tell from the following: i) it's too dense (it whould have been split in multiple one chart pages); ii) there is no logic to sizes, colors and shapes; iii) some nodes might have been grouped and shown has one node (example: Natl coordinator for health IT, Office of Civil Rights, Office of Minority Health). </p> <p>Second point: this is a chart prepared by the political opposition. There is no guarantee that it is correct and that it's not overcomplicating things.<br /> </p> Sorry, but I don't see the point of this post. First and foremost, if you think this chart is horrific, you have never seen a serious workflow chart done in Visio. Any engineer working in chip design, manufacturing, software, BPR, has seen much, much worse than this. If you trace information and decision flows within GMU, my bet is will get a much more complex picture than the one reviled by you, Drudge, Glenn Beck etc. Summing up: the chart may seem horrific, but it's probably much simpler than an accurate depiction of the *CURRENT* system (as you noted). And it's much simpler than almost *ANY* organization of decent size (as perhaps Hayek would have noted). Vikingvista noted above the intrinsic complexity of markets, and Methink noted that they are self-organizing systems. What both failed to acknowledge it that also non-market organizations (e.g., a large IT company) may have very complex *designed* structures. Is that a disqualifying feature of a system? No. Organizations design, or engineer they process to address a need. If you want to criticize the Health Care Reform, don't do it on account of its perceived complexity, but based on an analysis of the incentives of the parties involved.

Two more points, mostly minor. First, the chart is done incompetently. You can tell from the following: i) it's too dense (it whould have been split in multiple one chart pages); ii) there is no logic to sizes, colors and shapes; iii) some nodes might have been grouped and shown has one node (example: Natl coordinator for health IT, Office of Civil Rights, Office of Minority Health).

Second point: this is a chart prepared by the political opposition. There is no guarantee that it is correct and that it's not overcomplicating things.

]]> By: thedaddy http://cafehayek.com/2009/07/health-care-reform.html/comment-page-1#comment-52360 thedaddy Tue, 30 Nov 1999 07:00:00 +0000 http://70.32.86.159/2009/07/health-care-reform.html#comment-52360 <p>Gappy - "There is no logic to sizes, colors and shapes; iii) some nodes might have been grouped and shown has one node (example: Natl coordinator for health IT, Office of Civil Rights, Office of Minority Health."<br /> <p><br /> The above statement is just wrong.<br /> <p><br /> The reason there is no logic to the sizes or the chart is that the "Government" is not capable of logic. Therefore the chart is a very accurate representation of the idiocy that is coming out of congress and our alleged president. <br /> <p><br /> thedaddy</p> Gappy – "There is no logic to sizes, colors and shapes; iii) some nodes might have been grouped and shown has one node (example: Natl coordinator for health IT, Office of Civil Rights, Office of Minority Health."

The above statement is just wrong.

The reason there is no logic to the sizes or the chart is that the "Government" is not capable of logic. Therefore the chart is a very accurate representation of the idiocy that is coming out of congress and our alleged president.

thedaddy

]]> By: Daniel Kuehn http://cafehayek.com/2009/07/health-care-reform.html/comment-page-1#comment-52361 Daniel Kuehn Tue, 30 Nov 1999 07:00:00 +0000 http://70.32.86.159/2009/07/health-care-reform.html#comment-52361 <p>the daddy -<br /> I think gappy's specific points are a little more convincing than the blanket faith-based assertion that "Government is not capable of logic".</p> <p>Thanks the daddy - real thoughts - it's nice to read.</p> the daddy -
I think gappy's specific points are a little more convincing than the blanket faith-based assertion that "Government is not capable of logic".

Thanks the daddy – real thoughts – it's nice to read.

]]> By: MnM http://cafehayek.com/2009/07/health-care-reform.html/comment-page-1#comment-52362 MnM Tue, 30 Nov 1999 07:00:00 +0000 http://70.32.86.159/2009/07/health-care-reform.html#comment-52362 <p>It looks like Walt Disney threw up. </p> It looks like Walt Disney threw up.

]]> By: Daniel Kuehn http://cafehayek.com/2009/07/health-care-reform.html/comment-page-1#comment-52363 Daniel Kuehn Tue, 30 Nov 1999 07:00:00 +0000 http://70.32.86.159/2009/07/health-care-reform.html#comment-52363 <p>switch that - thanks to gappy.</p> <p>But the daddy, don't worry. Your knee jerk assertion that the government is not capable of logic is probably going to be well received. </p> switch that – thanks to gappy.

But the daddy, don't worry. Your knee jerk assertion that the government is not capable of logic is probably going to be well received.

]]> By: JohnK http://cafehayek.com/2009/07/health-care-reform.html/comment-page-1#comment-52364 JohnK Tue, 30 Nov 1999 07:00:00 +0000 http://70.32.86.159/2009/07/health-care-reform.html#comment-52364 <p><i>There is no guarantee that it is correct and that it's not overcomplicating things.</i></p> <p>But what if it is a correct simplification?</p> There is no guarantee that it is correct and that it's not overcomplicating things.

But what if it is a correct simplification?

]]>