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	<title>Comments on: Markets Don&#8217;t Work in Health Care?</title>
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	<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/07/markets-dont-work-in-health-care.html</link>
	<description>where orders emerge</description>
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		<title>By: wight_loss_pill</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/07/markets-dont-work-in-health-care.html/comment-page-2#comment-182725</link>
		<dc:creator>wight_loss_pill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Sep 2009 09:54:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.32.86.159/2009/07/markets-dont-work-in-health-care.html#comment-182725</guid>
		<description>This is cool! And so interested! Are u have more posts like this? Plese tell me, thanks
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is cool! And so interested! Are u have more posts like this? Plese tell me, thanks</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/07/markets-dont-work-in-health-care.html/comment-page-2#comment-182350</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 13:35:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.32.86.159/2009/07/markets-dont-work-in-health-care.html#comment-182350</guid>
		<description>I think people need a more personal approach when it comes to doctors. I know i have a doctor which takes care of my problems(&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.sanatatesexuala.ro/produs.php?nume=vimax&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;vimax&lt;/a&gt;) and he is so nice. He always knows me by name, he&#039;s friendly and i gladly attent every meeting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think people need a more personal approach when it comes to doctors. I know i have a doctor which takes care of my problems(<a href="http://www.sanatatesexuala.ro/produs.php?nume=vimax" rel="nofollow">vimax</a>) and he is so nice. He always knows me by name, he&#8217;s friendly and i gladly attent every meeting.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Watch Movies Online</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/07/markets-dont-work-in-health-care.html/comment-page-2#comment-178065</link>
		<dc:creator>Watch Movies Online</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Aug 2009 12:43:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.32.86.159/2009/07/markets-dont-work-in-health-care.html#comment-178065</guid>
		<description>This focus on the positives will hand you pin money your mindset and keep the weight sacrifice.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This focus on the positives will hand you pin money your mindset and keep the weight sacrifice.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/07/markets-dont-work-in-health-care.html/comment-page-2#comment-176694</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Aug 2009 12:35:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.32.86.159/2009/07/markets-dont-work-in-health-care.html#comment-176694</guid>
		<description>&quot;They have great topics like this one on www.energytalkradio.com and donate 30% to charity!  Check them out.&quot; 
 
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;They have great topics like this one on <a href="http://www.energytalkradio.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.energytalkradio.com</a> and donate 30% to charity!  Check them out.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: John Galt</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/07/markets-dont-work-in-health-care.html/comment-page-1#comment-51814</link>
		<dc:creator>John Galt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 07:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.32.86.159/2009/07/markets-dont-work-in-health-care.html#comment-51814</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;It&#039;s too bad Krugman cannot defend his positions as gracefully as you discredit them.&lt;/p&gt;

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#39;s too bad Krugman cannot defend his positions as gracefully as you discredit them.</p>
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		<title>By: John Galt</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/07/markets-dont-work-in-health-care.html/comment-page-1#comment-51815</link>
		<dc:creator>John Galt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 07:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.32.86.159/2009/07/markets-dont-work-in-health-care.html#comment-51815</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I believe I meant &quot;graciously.&quot;&lt;/p&gt;

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe I meant &quot;graciously.&quot;</p>
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		<title>By: True_Liberal</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/07/markets-dont-work-in-health-care.html/comment-page-1#comment-51816</link>
		<dc:creator>True_Liberal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 07:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.32.86.159/2009/07/markets-dont-work-in-health-care.html#comment-51816</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;There&#039;s an obvious example where the free market has worked VERY WELL in healthcare: Refractive eye surgery.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;In the 60s there was radial keratotomy, performed with a tiny knife. Very expensive, and not without risk. Along came the laser, which was faster and less expensive. The risk was lessened, and the market grew quickly for this procedure.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Funny thing: Because this is an elective procedure, insurance doesn&#039;t cover it. The patient pays 100% out of pocket.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;So, the more price decreased, the bigger the market grew. Economies of scale further brought cost (and price) under control. It&#039;s that crazy law of downward-sloping demand, which Krugman seems to dismiss, even though I learned it in Econ 101.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;But separate price from cost, as occurs in any insurance plan, and the whole supply-demand relationship is corrupted.&lt;/p&gt;

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#39;s an obvious example where the free market has worked VERY WELL in healthcare: Refractive eye surgery.</p>
<p>In the 60s there was radial keratotomy, performed with a tiny knife. Very expensive, and not without risk. Along came the laser, which was faster and less expensive. The risk was lessened, and the market grew quickly for this procedure.</p>
<p>Funny thing: Because this is an elective procedure, insurance doesn&#39;t cover it. The patient pays 100% out of pocket.</p>
<p>So, the more price decreased, the bigger the market grew. Economies of scale further brought cost (and price) under control. It&#39;s that crazy law of downward-sloping demand, which Krugman seems to dismiss, even though I learned it in Econ 101.</p>
<p>But separate price from cost, as occurs in any insurance plan, and the whole supply-demand relationship is corrupted.</p>
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		<title>By: dg lesvic</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/07/markets-dont-work-in-health-care.html/comment-page-1#comment-51817</link>
		<dc:creator>dg lesvic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 07:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.32.86.159/2009/07/markets-dont-work-in-health-care.html#comment-51817</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;There were no examples of man flying either until a man did it.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;The broad appeal of a communist health care system rests on one thing.  Redistribution.  That is still the &quot;bottom line,&quot; as Prof Boudreaux has so aptly put it, for this issue, as for almost every other.  And you will not put it to rest once and for all until you address that issue.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;The ultimate question remains: does taking, whether health care or anything else, from rich to poor make the poor richer or poorer?&lt;/p&gt;

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There were no examples of man flying either until a man did it.</p>
<p>The broad appeal of a communist health care system rests on one thing.  Redistribution.  That is still the &quot;bottom line,&quot; as Prof Boudreaux has so aptly put it, for this issue, as for almost every other.  And you will not put it to rest once and for all until you address that issue.</p>
<p>The ultimate question remains: does taking, whether health care or anything else, from rich to poor make the poor richer or poorer?</p>
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		<title>By: dg lesvic</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/07/markets-dont-work-in-health-care.html/comment-page-1#comment-51818</link>
		<dc:creator>dg lesvic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 07:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.32.86.159/2009/07/markets-dont-work-in-health-care.html#comment-51818</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;And let me make it clear that by calling people like Prof Krugman communists I don&#039;t mean to lump them in with the Stalins and Pol Pots.  For there are nice communists and not so nice ones.  But I&#039;ll stop calling the nice ones communists when they stop calling themselves liberals.&lt;/p&gt;

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And let me make it clear that by calling people like Prof Krugman communists I don&#39;t mean to lump them in with the Stalins and Pol Pots.  For there are nice communists and not so nice ones.  But I&#39;ll stop calling the nice ones communists when they stop calling themselves liberals.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike B</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/07/markets-dont-work-in-health-care.html/comment-page-1#comment-51819</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 07:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.32.86.159/2009/07/markets-dont-work-in-health-care.html#comment-51819</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Krugman is wrong (again). Free markets in health care have pretty much never been tried. Firms offer health insurance because that part of employee compensation is then tax-free. Of firms that do offer health insurance almost 90% have one plan choice (quite a free market, huh!). That choice often has more to do with golf outings, sports tickets and expensive lunches for the boss/HR dept than what type of health insurance employees want to have. This lack of effective competition makes health demand far less elastic. It also allows many of the 1,300 or so firms that write health insurance to survive without meaningful competition and a constant need to innovate. Many of these are fee for service 1960s junkers like Medicare and, indeed, many simply copy Medicare&#039;s price control scheme. Thus, the stench of 10,000 controlled prices in 3,000 counties is also relevant in much of the private sector. Further, the direct and indirect mandating (through Department of Labor rules) of community rated premiums drives healthy individuals out of the pool and leads insurers to avoid high risk enrollees instead of developing integrated special needs plans to deal with the chronically ill and their numerous health issues. &lt;/p&gt;

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Krugman is wrong (again). Free markets in health care have pretty much never been tried. Firms offer health insurance because that part of employee compensation is then tax-free. Of firms that do offer health insurance almost 90% have one plan choice (quite a free market, huh!). That choice often has more to do with golf outings, sports tickets and expensive lunches for the boss/HR dept than what type of health insurance employees want to have. This lack of effective competition makes health demand far less elastic. It also allows many of the 1,300 or so firms that write health insurance to survive without meaningful competition and a constant need to innovate. Many of these are fee for service 1960s junkers like Medicare and, indeed, many simply copy Medicare&#39;s price control scheme. Thus, the stench of 10,000 controlled prices in 3,000 counties is also relevant in much of the private sector. Further, the direct and indirect mandating (through Department of Labor rules) of community rated premiums drives healthy individuals out of the pool and leads insurers to avoid high risk enrollees instead of developing integrated special needs plans to deal with the chronically ill and their numerous health issues. </p>
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		<title>By: dg lesvic</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/07/markets-dont-work-in-health-care.html/comment-page-1#comment-51820</link>
		<dc:creator>dg lesvic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 07:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.32.86.159/2009/07/markets-dont-work-in-health-care.html#comment-51820</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Over at Marginal Revolution this morning, Tyler Cowen says the same thing I did, that this is really an issue of redistribution, or &quot;distribution,&quot; as he put it.&lt;/p&gt;

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Over at Marginal Revolution this morning, Tyler Cowen says the same thing I did, that this is really an issue of redistribution, or &quot;distribution,&quot; as he put it.</p>
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		<title>By: Sam Grove</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/07/markets-dont-work-in-health-care.html/comment-page-1#comment-51821</link>
		<dc:creator>Sam Grove</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 07:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.32.86.159/2009/07/markets-dont-work-in-health-care.html#comment-51821</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Redistribution is a perverse substitute for productivity.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Perverse in that productive effort generates the resources that make health care available to people, while redistribution, by displacing productive effort, must negatively affect the availability of the resources that make health care available to people&lt;/p&gt;

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Redistribution is a perverse substitute for productivity.</p>
<p>Perverse in that productive effort generates the resources that make health care available to people, while redistribution, by displacing productive effort, must negatively affect the availability of the resources that make health care available to people</p>
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		<title>By: Crusader</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/07/markets-dont-work-in-health-care.html/comment-page-1#comment-51822</link>
		<dc:creator>Crusader</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 07:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.32.86.159/2009/07/markets-dont-work-in-health-care.html#comment-51822</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;The fact is the free market delivers health care wonderfully to 80% of the people, because those people PAY for it. But that isn&#039;t good enough for the redistrubutionists, so we have to blow up what free market health care exists, and make us all suffer under single-payer.&lt;/p&gt;

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The fact is the free market delivers health care wonderfully to 80% of the people, because those people PAY for it. But that isn&#39;t good enough for the redistrubutionists, so we have to blow up what free market health care exists, and make us all suffer under single-payer.</p>
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		<title>By: Crusader</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/07/markets-dont-work-in-health-care.html/comment-page-1#comment-51823</link>
		<dc:creator>Crusader</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 07:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.32.86.159/2009/07/markets-dont-work-in-health-care.html#comment-51823</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Sam - I keep hearing how the Europeans do so wonderfully with socialism. Even when you cite their much lower productivity, the counter-argument is that they love their social-welfare and 6 weeks guaranteed vacation. Assuming, of course one is working. I believe EU unemployment is 12-15%?&lt;/p&gt;

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sam &#8211; I keep hearing how the Europeans do so wonderfully with socialism. Even when you cite their much lower productivity, the counter-argument is that they love their social-welfare and 6 weeks guaranteed vacation. Assuming, of course one is working. I believe EU unemployment is 12-15%?</p>
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		<title>By: Crusader</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/07/markets-dont-work-in-health-care.html/comment-page-1#comment-51824</link>
		<dc:creator>Crusader</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 07:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.32.86.159/2009/07/markets-dont-work-in-health-care.html#comment-51824</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;EU starting to think about how to gain innovative advantage:&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;http://www.eurothinkers.eu/2009/02/lorem-ipsum/&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;So to liberal trolls, the Euros are VERY concerned about their lack of innovation in the science area.&lt;/p&gt;

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>EU starting to think about how to gain innovative advantage:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.eurothinkers.eu/2009/02/lorem-ipsum/" rel="nofollow">http://www.eurothinkers.eu/2009/02/lorem-ipsum/</a></p>
<p>So to liberal trolls, the Euros are VERY concerned about their lack of innovation in the science area.</p>
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		<title>By: Sam Grove</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/07/markets-dont-work-in-health-care.html/comment-page-1#comment-51825</link>
		<dc:creator>Sam Grove</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 07:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.32.86.159/2009/07/markets-dont-work-in-health-care.html#comment-51825</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Again, it&#039;s fiat economics.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&quot;Health care provision exhibits market failure.&quot;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;How is this known?&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&quot;We have declared it so.&quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;/p&gt;

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Again, it&#39;s fiat economics.</p>
<p>&quot;Health care provision exhibits market failure.&quot;</p>
<p>How is this known?</p>
<p>&quot;We have declared it so.&quot;</p>
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		<title>By: Milton Recht</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/07/markets-dont-work-in-health-care.html/comment-page-1#comment-51826</link>
		<dc:creator>Milton Recht</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 07:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.32.86.159/2009/07/markets-dont-work-in-health-care.html#comment-51826</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Even Hardin&#039;s &quot;Tragedy of the Commons&quot; is myth unsupported by actual facts. In England, at and prior to the time of the supposed tragedy (which never really happened), there was the concept of &quot;stinting&quot; and self-regulation of common grazing lands by the community of users, a cooperative. They would monitor use, enforce regulations against overuse and modify individual allowable usage based on the condition of the land. Similarly reports exist for Germany at the time about community cooperatives regulating common lands.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;It is usually government interference, or simplistic economic analysis of externalities without understanding that affected parties will seek contractual and legal arrangements to protect themselves, that leads to the perception of a market failure.&lt;/p&gt;

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Even Hardin&#39;s &quot;Tragedy of the Commons&quot; is myth unsupported by actual facts. In England, at and prior to the time of the supposed tragedy (which never really happened), there was the concept of &quot;stinting&quot; and self-regulation of common grazing lands by the community of users, a cooperative. They would monitor use, enforce regulations against overuse and modify individual allowable usage based on the condition of the land. Similarly reports exist for Germany at the time about community cooperatives regulating common lands.</p>
<p>It is usually government interference, or simplistic economic analysis of externalities without understanding that affected parties will seek contractual and legal arrangements to protect themselves, that leads to the perception of a market failure.</p>
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		<title>By: dg lesvic</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/07/markets-dont-work-in-health-care.html/comment-page-1#comment-51827</link>
		<dc:creator>dg lesvic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 07:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.32.86.159/2009/07/markets-dont-work-in-health-care.html#comment-51827</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Sam,&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;You&#039;re saying that redistribution reduces society&#039;s total net income still leaves the assumption that it increases the poor&#039;s proportional share of it.  And that still leaves the question: would they be better off with the larger proportional shares of the smaller cake or smaller proportional shares of the larger cake.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Mises said that the question was beyond economics.  He missed the point.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;It does not leave the poor with a larger but smaller proportional share of the smaller cake.&lt;/p&gt;

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sam,</p>
<p>You&#39;re saying that redistribution reduces society&#39;s total net income still leaves the assumption that it increases the poor&#39;s proportional share of it.  And that still leaves the question: would they be better off with the larger proportional shares of the smaller cake or smaller proportional shares of the larger cake.</p>
<p>Mises said that the question was beyond economics.  He missed the point.</p>
<p>It does not leave the poor with a larger but smaller proportional share of the smaller cake.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy L.</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/07/markets-dont-work-in-health-care.html/comment-page-1#comment-51828</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy L.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 07:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.32.86.159/2009/07/markets-dont-work-in-health-care.html#comment-51828</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Here in Canada, I have from time to time heard doctors propose organizing their patients as a corporation, perhaps something along the lines of a credit union or not-for-profit. These projects are always shot down by bureaucrats, because they are &quot;private&quot;, ie. don&#039;t fit the model of publicly funded care. Even when the patients are interested.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Can anyone direct me to research from an Austrian perspective on arrangements like this? In health care or in other sectors (eg. credit unions for financial services)?&lt;/p&gt;

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here in Canada, I have from time to time heard doctors propose organizing their patients as a corporation, perhaps something along the lines of a credit union or not-for-profit. These projects are always shot down by bureaucrats, because they are &quot;private&quot;, ie. don&#39;t fit the model of publicly funded care. Even when the patients are interested.</p>
<p>Can anyone direct me to research from an Austrian perspective on arrangements like this? In health care or in other sectors (eg. credit unions for financial services)?</p>
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		<title>By: Martin Brock</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/07/markets-dont-work-in-health-care.html/comment-page-1#comment-51829</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin Brock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 07:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.32.86.159/2009/07/markets-dont-work-in-health-care.html#comment-51829</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;
The ultimate question remains: does taking, whether health care or anything else, from rich to poor make the poor richer or poorer?
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

&lt;p&gt;The ultimate answer depends upon why the rich are rich and the poor are poor. In the Soviet Union, the rich were highly placed officials in the planning bureaucracy, while the poor were people subject to the Soviet Union with no loyalty to the Communist Party. Taking wealth from the one and transferring it to the other might have been useful.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;/p&gt;

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The ultimate question remains: does taking, whether health care or anything else, from rich to poor make the poor richer or poorer?
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<p>The ultimate answer depends upon why the rich are rich and the poor are poor. In the Soviet Union, the rich were highly placed officials in the planning bureaucracy, while the poor were people subject to the Soviet Union with no loyalty to the Communist Party. Taking wealth from the one and transferring it to the other might have been useful.</p>
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