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	<title>Comments on: A health care manifesto</title>
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	<description>where orders emerge</description>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/08/a-health-care-manifesto.html/comment-page-1#comment-178776</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2009 17:09:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6018#comment-178776</guid>
		<description>Precisely.  Thanks for the assist.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Precisely.  Thanks for the assist.</p>
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		<title>By: John Dewey</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/08/a-health-care-manifesto.html/comment-page-1#comment-178763</link>
		<dc:creator>John Dewey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2009 16:31:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6018#comment-178763</guid>
		<description>I think you meant to say that the employee&#039;s tax shield, not the employer&#039;s tax deduction, needs to be removed.  Employers are going to deduct all compensation to employees, whether that compensation is cash or benefits.  The uneven treatment of health insurance is this:  when employees purchase health insurance on their own, they do so with after-tax dollars; when their employer purchases health insurance for them, that benefit is not included on the employees&#039; W-2 statements and they pay no income taxes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you meant to say that the employee&#8217;s tax shield, not the employer&#8217;s tax deduction, needs to be removed.  Employers are going to deduct all compensation to employees, whether that compensation is cash or benefits.  The uneven treatment of health insurance is this:  when employees purchase health insurance on their own, they do so with after-tax dollars; when their employer purchases health insurance for them, that benefit is not included on the employees&#8217; W-2 statements and they pay no income taxes.</p>
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		<title>By: John Dewey</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/08/a-health-care-manifesto.html/comment-page-1#comment-178759</link>
		<dc:creator>John Dewey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2009 16:25:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6018#comment-178759</guid>
		<description>I agree that state mandates force health insurance spending higher.  I&#039;m in complete agreement that these should be eliminated.

Such mandates are not the only reason employees have benefits they do not need.  Employers choose standardized packages for their employees becaues the overhead is much lower than it would be for individually-tailored packages.

After passage of ERISA, states could no longer mandate coverage for companies which shose to self-insure.  I haven&#039;t found recent statistics.  In 1993,  49% of workers covered by employer-provided health insurance worked for firms that self-insured.  As I understand it, liberals in many states are furious about the ERISA laws which prevent them from controlling the lives of others.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that state mandates force health insurance spending higher.  I&#8217;m in complete agreement that these should be eliminated.</p>
<p>Such mandates are not the only reason employees have benefits they do not need.  Employers choose standardized packages for their employees becaues the overhead is much lower than it would be for individually-tailored packages.</p>
<p>After passage of ERISA, states could no longer mandate coverage for companies which shose to self-insure.  I haven&#8217;t found recent statistics.  In 1993,  49% of workers covered by employer-provided health insurance worked for firms that self-insured.  As I understand it, liberals in many states are furious about the ERISA laws which prevent them from controlling the lives of others.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/08/a-health-care-manifesto.html/comment-page-1#comment-178716</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2009 14:07:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6018#comment-178716</guid>
		<description>Re #8 - Who is &quot;We&quot; who have the obligation?  Can &quot;society&quot; have an obligation?  I don&#039;t believe so.  I believe it is only the individual who has a moral obligation, and he cannot be coerced into honoring it.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re #8 &#8211; Who is &#8220;We&#8221; who have the obligation?  Can &#8220;society&#8221; have an obligation?  I don&#8217;t believe so.  I believe it is only the individual who has a moral obligation, and he cannot be coerced into honoring it.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/08/a-health-care-manifesto.html/comment-page-1#comment-178713</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2009 13:58:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6018#comment-178713</guid>
		<description>90% of the money spent on health care in the US is paid by a 3rd party.  Of course, when it is employer-provided health insurance, it is in fact the insured&#039;s own compensation being spent, but that is not apparent to the great majority of consumers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>90% of the money spent on health care in the US is paid by a 3rd party.  Of course, when it is employer-provided health insurance, it is in fact the insured&#8217;s own compensation being spent, but that is not apparent to the great majority of consumers.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/08/a-health-care-manifesto.html/comment-page-1#comment-178712</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2009 13:54:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6018#comment-178712</guid>
		<description>The actual tax benefit to the employee is not the determining factor in the attractiveness of the benefit.  Have you ever told an employer that you would prefer to take the equivalent of the value of the health insurance in cash compensation?  They look at you like you have two heads -- nobody asks that.  Although I&#039;m sure it happens more and more often.  People look at the insurance as a &#039;free&#039; benefit, and generally have no idea what the cash equivalent would be.  Further, it doesn&#039;t occur to most that they could purchase insurance themselves, and no doubt in most states that coverage would cost more than what the employer is paying.

The bottom line, therefore, in order to reform the market, the employer&#039;s tax deduction must be removed.  It would then cost less to give the employee a cash raise than to provide health insurance, and the market would move away from the foolish structure where the employer provides the coverage &#039;free&#039; so that the consumer overconsumes health care.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The actual tax benefit to the employee is not the determining factor in the attractiveness of the benefit.  Have you ever told an employer that you would prefer to take the equivalent of the value of the health insurance in cash compensation?  They look at you like you have two heads &#8212; nobody asks that.  Although I&#8217;m sure it happens more and more often.  People look at the insurance as a &#8216;free&#8217; benefit, and generally have no idea what the cash equivalent would be.  Further, it doesn&#8217;t occur to most that they could purchase insurance themselves, and no doubt in most states that coverage would cost more than what the employer is paying.</p>
<p>The bottom line, therefore, in order to reform the market, the employer&#8217;s tax deduction must be removed.  It would then cost less to give the employee a cash raise than to provide health insurance, and the market would move away from the foolish structure where the employer provides the coverage &#8216;free&#8217; so that the consumer overconsumes health care.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/08/a-health-care-manifesto.html/comment-page-1#comment-178703</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2009 13:12:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6018#comment-178703</guid>
		<description>I believe that as in most political discussions language matters, and in this one the statists dominate the language.  We ought to stop using the term &quot;health care system,&quot; because it implies some sort of monolithic enterprise and an element of central control. Rather, we ought to refer to the health care and health insurance &quot;markets&quot; and thereby clearly signal what it really ought to be, a free market.  And we ought to name the interventions of the state for what they are, intervention and interference with the operation of the markets.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe that as in most political discussions language matters, and in this one the statists dominate the language.  We ought to stop using the term &#8220;health care system,&#8221; because it implies some sort of monolithic enterprise and an element of central control. Rather, we ought to refer to the health care and health insurance &#8220;markets&#8221; and thereby clearly signal what it really ought to be, a free market.  And we ought to name the interventions of the state for what they are, intervention and interference with the operation of the markets.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/08/a-health-care-manifesto.html/comment-page-1#comment-178702</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2009 13:07:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6018#comment-178702</guid>
		<description>The issue is that if an insurer is permitted to provide a policy with just a basic level of benefits, it will cost necessarily much less than one that covers every last thing.  Some consumers would purchase that policy, because it would be less expensive.  Instead, the states require many unnecessary elements of coverage, jacking up the cost, so the consumer cannot afford any policy.  The state needs to permit the freedom of contract - a consumer and a business ought to be permitted to enter into any voluntary contract that does not involve the infringement of the rights of another citizen.  Then the market would do what it does in any free market: develop the products and services that people want and need and offer them at competitive prices.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The issue is that if an insurer is permitted to provide a policy with just a basic level of benefits, it will cost necessarily much less than one that covers every last thing.  Some consumers would purchase that policy, because it would be less expensive.  Instead, the states require many unnecessary elements of coverage, jacking up the cost, so the consumer cannot afford any policy.  The state needs to permit the freedom of contract &#8211; a consumer and a business ought to be permitted to enter into any voluntary contract that does not involve the infringement of the rights of another citizen.  Then the market would do what it does in any free market: develop the products and services that people want and need and offer them at competitive prices.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/08/a-health-care-manifesto.html/comment-page-1#comment-178699</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2009 12:56:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6018#comment-178699</guid>
		<description>What difference does it make if Medicare (Canadian) covers a patient&#039;s hip replacement surgery, if the patient cannot get an actual surgery performed?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What difference does it make if Medicare (Canadian) covers a patient&#8217;s hip replacement surgery, if the patient cannot get an actual surgery performed?</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/08/a-health-care-manifesto.html/comment-page-1#comment-178697</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2009 12:50:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6018#comment-178697</guid>
		<description>Principles:  

1. There is no such thing as an entitlement to other people&#039;s money.  There is no right to health insurance provided by other people&#039;s money.

2. Any subsidy is paid directly to the beneficiary, not the provider.

3. No tax deduction to employer; as with subsidy, any favorable tax treatment goes directly to the consumer.

4. Default position is &quot;As little regulation as possible -- allow market forces to direct behavior.&quot;  Each regulation is reviewed annually and must be affirmatively voted for renewal.

5.  No automatic program increases.  Each program must be reviewed annually.  A vote of both houses is required to renew the program.  

6. No deficit spending.  If voters are not willing to accept additional taxes, then they are not willing to support additional expenditure.  No exceptions.

7. There is no such thing as an entitlement to other people&#039;s money.  There is no right to health insurance provided by other people&#039;s money.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Principles:  </p>
<p>1. There is no such thing as an entitlement to other people&#8217;s money.  There is no right to health insurance provided by other people&#8217;s money.</p>
<p>2. Any subsidy is paid directly to the beneficiary, not the provider.</p>
<p>3. No tax deduction to employer; as with subsidy, any favorable tax treatment goes directly to the consumer.</p>
<p>4. Default position is &#8220;As little regulation as possible &#8212; allow market forces to direct behavior.&#8221;  Each regulation is reviewed annually and must be affirmatively voted for renewal.</p>
<p>5.  No automatic program increases.  Each program must be reviewed annually.  A vote of both houses is required to renew the program.  </p>
<p>6. No deficit spending.  If voters are not willing to accept additional taxes, then they are not willing to support additional expenditure.  No exceptions.</p>
<p>7. There is no such thing as an entitlement to other people&#8217;s money.  There is no right to health insurance provided by other people&#8217;s money.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/08/a-health-care-manifesto.html/comment-page-1#comment-178694</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2009 12:40:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6018#comment-178694</guid>
		<description>Private individuals and organizations are much more efficient and effective at providing the &#039;hand up&#039; that is appropriate than is the government, for a number of reasons.  The economic and moral distortions of entitlement programs result in their applying to a much larger population and costing much more than they would if the government were not involved.  

   

--Compare this to the current circumstances where an elderly person is incentivized to deplete his estate in order to get his fellow citizens (Medicaid) to fund his assisted living.  



-- Exactly!  Only people who are really needy ought to receive the largesse of their fellow citizens, and that ought to be voluntary.  Obviously it would be billions and billions less than is being confiscated now and turned over to other citizens -- that is a very good thing.



Why not?  Why shouldn&#039;t people pay for their own routine medical care?  What is different about medical care -- which consists of goods and services -- and any other category of goods and services that we expect routinely to pay out of pocket?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Private individuals and organizations are much more efficient and effective at providing the &#8216;hand up&#8217; that is appropriate than is the government, for a number of reasons.  The economic and moral distortions of entitlement programs result in their applying to a much larger population and costing much more than they would if the government were not involved.  </p>
<p>&#8211;Compare this to the current circumstances where an elderly person is incentivized to deplete his estate in order to get his fellow citizens (Medicaid) to fund his assisted living.  </p>
<p>&#8211; Exactly!  Only people who are really needy ought to receive the largesse of their fellow citizens, and that ought to be voluntary.  Obviously it would be billions and billions less than is being confiscated now and turned over to other citizens &#8212; that is a very good thing.</p>
<p>Why not?  Why shouldn&#8217;t people pay for their own routine medical care?  What is different about medical care &#8212; which consists of goods and services &#8212; and any other category of goods and services that we expect routinely to pay out of pocket?</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/08/a-health-care-manifesto.html/comment-page-1#comment-178652</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2009 03:33:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6018#comment-178652</guid>
		<description>What about government?  Shouldn&#039;t that be free too?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What about government?  Shouldn&#8217;t that be free too?</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/08/a-health-care-manifesto.html/comment-page-1#comment-178651</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2009 03:31:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6018#comment-178651</guid>
		<description>Here&#039;s my health care reform manifesto:

1.  Leave us alone!  Laissez-nous faire!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s my health care reform manifesto:</p>
<p>1.  Leave us alone!  Laissez-nous faire!</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/08/a-health-care-manifesto.html/comment-page-1#comment-178650</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2009 03:28:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6018#comment-178650</guid>
		<description>Who pays attention to the Constitution anymore?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Who pays attention to the Constitution anymore?</p>
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		<title>By: Methinks</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/08/a-health-care-manifesto.html/comment-page-1#comment-178623</link>
		<dc:creator>Methinks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Aug 2009 23:34:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6018#comment-178623</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;3. Customized insurance plans would have much higher administration costs per insuree. IMO, individuals or families will still take advantage of group buying power and the standardization that implies.&lt;/i&gt;

John, I think those costs could come down significantly if insurers could compete across state lines and achieve some economies of scale in the individual market.  Also, offering a few packages that would offer some flexibility, but not exactly an ala cart menu would bring down costs.  Ala cart could be made available, but at a higher cost to cover the higher administrative costs - it would be the consumer&#039;s choice. I think that might also address the issues you brought up in #2.

&lt;i&gt;8. I do not understand why you believe &quot;we&quot; are obligated to ensure everyone has access to health care. Who do you include in that term &#039;we&quot;?&lt;/i&gt;

If I may add - it&#039;s also important to define what is meant by &quot;health care&quot;, &quot;minimum&quot;, &quot;basic&quot; and &quot;access&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>3. Customized insurance plans would have much higher administration costs per insuree. IMO, individuals or families will still take advantage of group buying power and the standardization that implies.</i></p>
<p>John, I think those costs could come down significantly if insurers could compete across state lines and achieve some economies of scale in the individual market.  Also, offering a few packages that would offer some flexibility, but not exactly an ala cart menu would bring down costs.  Ala cart could be made available, but at a higher cost to cover the higher administrative costs &#8211; it would be the consumer&#8217;s choice. I think that might also address the issues you brought up in #2.</p>
<p><i>8. I do not understand why you believe &#8220;we&#8221; are obligated to ensure everyone has access to health care. Who do you include in that term &#8216;we&#8221;?</i></p>
<p>If I may add &#8211; it&#8217;s also important to define what is meant by &#8220;health care&#8221;, &#8220;minimum&#8221;, &#8220;basic&#8221; and &#8220;access&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: John Dewey</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/08/a-health-care-manifesto.html/comment-page-1#comment-178620</link>
		<dc:creator>John Dewey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Aug 2009 22:53:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6018#comment-178620</guid>
		<description>While I think most of your points make sense, I still have comments about several:

2. I agree that preferential tax treatment should be eliminated.  But I don&#039;t believe that will end employee &quot;lock in&quot;.  Despite anecdotal claims to the contrary offered by commentors, few individuals can obtain at comparable rates anywhere close to the coverage they&#039;ve come to expect through employer-provided health insurance.

3. Customized insurance plans would have much higher administration costs per insuree.  IMO, individuals or families will still take advantage of group buying power and the standardization that implies.

5. While that is true, the contract between the insuree and the insuror will determine whether such treatment will be reimbursed.

6.  I do not understand what you mean by &quot;true health insurance&quot;.  Spreading risk across a population is included in many definitions of the word &quot;insurance&quot;.

8. I do not understand why you believe &quot;we&quot; are obligated to ensure everyone has access to health care.  Who do you include in that term &#039;we&quot;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I think most of your points make sense, I still have comments about several:</p>
<p>2. I agree that preferential tax treatment should be eliminated.  But I don&#8217;t believe that will end employee &#8220;lock in&#8221;.  Despite anecdotal claims to the contrary offered by commentors, few individuals can obtain at comparable rates anywhere close to the coverage they&#8217;ve come to expect through employer-provided health insurance.</p>
<p>3. Customized insurance plans would have much higher administration costs per insuree.  IMO, individuals or families will still take advantage of group buying power and the standardization that implies.</p>
<p>5. While that is true, the contract between the insuree and the insuror will determine whether such treatment will be reimbursed.</p>
<p>6.  I do not understand what you mean by &#8220;true health insurance&#8221;.  Spreading risk across a population is included in many definitions of the word &#8220;insurance&#8221;.</p>
<p>8. I do not understand why you believe &#8220;we&#8221; are obligated to ensure everyone has access to health care.  Who do you include in that term &#8216;we&#8221;?</p>
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		<title>By: Methinks</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/08/a-health-care-manifesto.html/comment-page-1#comment-178609</link>
		<dc:creator>Methinks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Aug 2009 22:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6018#comment-178609</guid>
		<description>I see your point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I see your point.</p>
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		<title>By: Jesse Johnson</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/08/a-health-care-manifesto.html/comment-page-1#comment-178602</link>
		<dc:creator>Jesse Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Aug 2009 21:20:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6018#comment-178602</guid>
		<description>1. Property rights.

2. Contracts</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1. Property rights.</p>
<p>2. Contracts</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/08/a-health-care-manifesto.html/comment-page-1#comment-178598</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Aug 2009 20:50:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6018#comment-178598</guid>
		<description>Do you have a link on that? Not that I don&#039;t believe you, but it&#039;s always nice to have references.

Thanks.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Do you have a link on that? Not that I don&#8217;t believe you, but it&#8217;s always nice to have references.</p>
<p>Thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: John Dewey</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/08/a-health-care-manifesto.html/comment-page-1#comment-178595</link>
		<dc:creator>John Dewey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Aug 2009 20:37:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6018#comment-178595</guid>
		<description>No, I agree somewhat.

Let&#039;s separate the issues of mandates and group  insurance benefit standardization.  Those are two different issues, as I see it.

I agree that mandates are wasteful, and that they drive up insurance costs.

Standardization of group insurance packages reduces administrative costs.  But it doesn&#039;t cost the employer any more to provide pregnancy benefits to anyone who cannot use them.  That&#039;s because actuaries have already discounted the total price to the employer.

What&#039;s really happening with group insurance is group buying power and sharing of costs.  Those who use few of the standardized benefits end up subsidizing those who use many of them.  But that&#039;s almost always the case with insurance, right?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, I agree somewhat.</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s separate the issues of mandates and group  insurance benefit standardization.  Those are two different issues, as I see it.</p>
<p>I agree that mandates are wasteful, and that they drive up insurance costs.</p>
<p>Standardization of group insurance packages reduces administrative costs.  But it doesn&#8217;t cost the employer any more to provide pregnancy benefits to anyone who cannot use them.  That&#8217;s because actuaries have already discounted the total price to the employer.</p>
<p>What&#8217;s really happening with group insurance is group buying power and sharing of costs.  Those who use few of the standardized benefits end up subsidizing those who use many of them.  But that&#8217;s almost always the case with insurance, right?</p>
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