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	<title>Comments on: Health care vs. health insurance</title>
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		<title>By: Anton</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/08/health-care-vs-health-insurance.html/comment-page-2#comment-62284</link>
		<dc:creator>Anton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Sep 2009 15:31:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=5962#comment-62284</guid>
		<description>change &quot;your&quot; to &quot;you&#039;re&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>change &#8220;your&#8221; to &#8220;you&#39;re&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Anton</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/08/health-care-vs-health-insurance.html/comment-page-2#comment-60011</link>
		<dc:creator>Anton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Sep 2009 12:31:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=5962#comment-60011</guid>
		<description>change &quot;your&quot; to &quot;you&#039;re&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>change &#8220;your&#8221; to &#8220;you&#39;re&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: sara05</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/08/health-care-vs-health-insurance.html/comment-page-2#comment-59159</link>
		<dc:creator>sara05</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 02:32:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=5962#comment-59159</guid>
		<description>Here is a great chance to drive a large number of targeted visitors to your blogs and websites for free. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Submit your websites, blogs, videos to &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.zillionsb.com&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.zillionsb.com&lt;/a&gt; and get 1000s of visitors everyday for free. It also helps your websites/blogs gain valuable backlinks.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Let the other bloggers cast their votes to push your posts up for a greater visibility. Enjoy free huge traffic to your sites.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Thanks&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Sara&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.zillionsb.com&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.zillionsb.com&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here is a great chance to drive a large number of targeted visitors to your blogs and websites for free. </p>
<p>Submit your websites, blogs, videos to <a href="http://www.zillionsb.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.zillionsb.com</a> and get 1000s of visitors everyday for free. It also helps your websites/blogs gain valuable backlinks.</p>
<p>Let the other bloggers cast their votes to push your posts up for a greater visibility. Enjoy free huge traffic to your sites.</p>
<p>Thanks</p>
<p>Sara</p>
<p><a href="http://www.zillionsb.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.zillionsb.com</a></p>
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		<title>By: jimpierq</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/08/health-care-vs-health-insurance.html/comment-page-2#comment-58240</link>
		<dc:creator>jimpierq</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2009 15:22:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=5962#comment-58240</guid>
		<description>I think it is a quite valid argument that coverage for the routine elements of childbirth is not actually insurance but savings.  (Complications, neonatal intensive care, etc, are in fact insurable risks.)  In almost all cases, having a third party do one&#039;s savings (whole life ins, etc) is more expensive than doing it yourself. Also, if a couple is paying childbirth expenses out of pocket (they have planned for close to 9 months, or more, so they will have saved), they will find out what the charges are and economize as they see fit, or not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it is a quite valid argument that coverage for the routine elements of childbirth is not actually insurance but savings.  (Complications, neonatal intensive care, etc, are in fact insurable risks.)  In almost all cases, having a third party do one&#39;s savings (whole life ins, etc) is more expensive than doing it yourself. Also, if a couple is paying childbirth expenses out of pocket (they have planned for close to 9 months, or more, so they will have saved), they will find out what the charges are and economize as they see fit, or not.</p>
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		<title>By: jimpierq</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/08/health-care-vs-health-insurance.html/comment-page-2#comment-58236</link>
		<dc:creator>jimpierq</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2009 15:17:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=5962#comment-58236</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s great!  Have you by any chance calculated the same thing for Soc Sec?  I think if people knew how much wealth they could accumulate by saving instead of paying in to Soc Sec, they would be much more willing to hear about reform ideas.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#39;s great!  Have you by any chance calculated the same thing for Soc Sec?  I think if people knew how much wealth they could accumulate by saving instead of paying in to Soc Sec, they would be much more willing to hear about reform ideas.</p>
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		<title>By: jimpierq</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/08/health-care-vs-health-insurance.html/comment-page-2#comment-58197</link>
		<dc:creator>jimpierq</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2009 13:32:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=5962#comment-58197</guid>
		<description>Did I say &#039;know&#039;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Did I say &#39;know&#39;?</p>
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		<title>By: jimpierq</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/08/health-care-vs-health-insurance.html/comment-page-2#comment-58194</link>
		<dc:creator>jimpierq</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2009 13:28:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=5962#comment-58194</guid>
		<description>&quot;risk and spending are the same thing&quot; ???&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I need some clarification on that.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;As I define it, risk involves uncertainty: the event may occur in the future, it may not.  I could go my whole life and never get cancer, but the entire time insure myself against the risk that it does happen.  The routine expenses of pregnancy, I suppose, can be considered risk to the extend the woman doesn&#039;t know for sure she will get pregnant, or when it will happen.  But it is a reach to put that in the same category as illnesses that the insured is unlikely to contract over their lifetime.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;risk and spending are the same thing&#8221; ???</p>
<p>I need some clarification on that.</p>
<p>As I define it, risk involves uncertainty: the event may occur in the future, it may not.  I could go my whole life and never get cancer, but the entire time insure myself against the risk that it does happen.  The routine expenses of pregnancy, I suppose, can be considered risk to the extend the woman doesn&#39;t know for sure she will get pregnant, or when it will happen.  But it is a reach to put that in the same category as illnesses that the insured is unlikely to contract over their lifetime.</p>
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		<title>By: ElMikeo</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/08/health-care-vs-health-insurance.html/comment-page-2#comment-58114</link>
		<dc:creator>ElMikeo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2009 02:29:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=5962#comment-58114</guid>
		<description>Why would you think pregnancy shouldn&#039;t be covered? What is more important than the beginning of a life? Do you think that any doctor would suggest costly tests for development and disease if it wasn&#039;t going to be covered?&lt;br&gt;Mike-http://www.onedollarglobeinsurance.com/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why would you think pregnancy shouldn&#39;t be covered? What is more important than the beginning of a life? Do you think that any doctor would suggest costly tests for development and disease if it wasn&#39;t going to be covered?<br />Mike-http://www.onedollarglobeinsurance.com/</p>
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		<title>By: jmchanti</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/08/health-care-vs-health-insurance.html/comment-page-2#comment-58094</link>
		<dc:creator>jmchanti</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2009 00:45:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=5962#comment-58094</guid>
		<description>Some states do have a sort of insurance for college tuition, Michigan has a program where you can pay your children tuition at the the current rate regardless of their age. So you can pay your newborn tuition today at today rate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some states do have a sort of insurance for college tuition, Michigan has a program where you can pay your children tuition at the the current rate regardless of their age. So you can pay your newborn tuition today at today rate.</p>
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		<title>By: vikingvista</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/08/health-care-vs-health-insurance.html/comment-page-2#comment-57928</link>
		<dc:creator>vikingvista</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Aug 2009 05:20:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=5962#comment-57928</guid>
		<description>First, $2000 is a lot of money, particularly for someone in a 15% bracket.  It is enough money to affect behavior even for people in much higher brackets.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Second, a lot of people are in higher brackets.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Third, your rebuttal doesn&#039;t even make sense.  What you should be comparing is the cost of group insurance + tax break, to the cost of individual insurance.  And even then, you have to be aware of the downward pressure in everyone&#039;s prices as more people choose the latter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First, $2000 is a lot of money, particularly for someone in a 15% bracket.  It is enough money to affect behavior even for people in much higher brackets.</p>
<p>Second, a lot of people are in higher brackets.</p>
<p>Third, your rebuttal doesn&#39;t even make sense.  What you should be comparing is the cost of group insurance + tax break, to the cost of individual insurance.  And even then, you have to be aware of the downward pressure in everyone&#39;s prices as more people choose the latter.</p>
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		<title>By: vikingvista</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/08/health-care-vs-health-insurance.html/comment-page-2#comment-57927</link>
		<dc:creator>vikingvista</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Aug 2009 05:00:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=5962#comment-57927</guid>
		<description>Interesting you say that.  I belong to a very large and well-funded professional organization.  They are constantly sending me adds for great insurance products only available to members.  In each case, for each type of insurance, the rates I found for myself were MUCH lower.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;And why would you think otherwise?  Most economic mistakes come from not accounting for all of the costs.  In this case, you are not counting the cost of a one-size fits all program.  My driving history, health history, life style--the things I&#039;m willing to do without, the things I really want covered--make me UNIQUE.  By entering a marketplace full of a wide variety of options, it is not unexpected that I would find something better, even cheaper, than what a group can offer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting you say that.  I belong to a very large and well-funded professional organization.  They are constantly sending me adds for great insurance products only available to members.  In each case, for each type of insurance, the rates I found for myself were MUCH lower.</p>
<p>And why would you think otherwise?  Most economic mistakes come from not accounting for all of the costs.  In this case, you are not counting the cost of a one-size fits all program.  My driving history, health history, life style&#8211;the things I&#39;m willing to do without, the things I really want covered&#8211;make me UNIQUE.  By entering a marketplace full of a wide variety of options, it is not unexpected that I would find something better, even cheaper, than what a group can offer.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Cushing</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/08/health-care-vs-health-insurance.html/comment-page-2#comment-57889</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Cushing</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Aug 2009 22:38:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=5962#comment-57889</guid>
		<description>Medicare and social security are almost the same thing.  I once calculated that if an average person saved instead of payed into medicare they would would accumulate an amount in the mid six figures by the time they are 65.  What they could do at this point it take out a health insurance plan that covers say $2,000,000  worth of care and has a $500,000 lifetime deductible.  Most people would not use the insurance and therefore it would BE insurance.  We need health care IRAs.  We can do this using the same techniques Chile used to privatize social security.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Medicare and social security are almost the same thing.  I once calculated that if an average person saved instead of payed into medicare they would would accumulate an amount in the mid six figures by the time they are 65.  What they could do at this point it take out a health insurance plan that covers say $2,000,000  worth of care and has a $500,000 lifetime deductible.  Most people would not use the insurance and therefore it would BE insurance.  We need health care IRAs.  We can do this using the same techniques Chile used to privatize social security.</p>
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		<title>By: johndewey</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/08/health-care-vs-health-insurance.html/comment-page-2#comment-57847</link>
		<dc:creator>johndewey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Aug 2009 17:51:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=5962#comment-57847</guid>
		<description>How can you know this?  We&#039;ve had medicare for senior citizens for 40 years.  What is the basis for your claim that those over 65 would be priced out of health insurance?  Freed from government interference, it&#039;s possible that markets would offer affordable insurance products which older consumers would desire.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How can you know this?  We&#39;ve had medicare for senior citizens for 40 years.  What is the basis for your claim that those over 65 would be priced out of health insurance?  Freed from government interference, it&#39;s possible that markets would offer affordable insurance products which older consumers would desire.</p>
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		<title>By: johndewey</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/08/health-care-vs-health-insurance.html/comment-page-2#comment-57846</link>
		<dc:creator>johndewey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Aug 2009 17:47:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=5962#comment-57846</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;jimpierq: &quot;There is absolutely no way the price (because of the group purchase) is better for close to half of those employees if the subsidy is not calculated in.&quot;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;How do you figure?  According to McKinsey and Co survey, the average cost for group health insurance for a family of four is about $13,000 annually.  The majority of households have a marginal tax rate of 15%.  So the tax subsidy for employer-based health insurance is less than $2,000 for a majority of families.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;If state insurance mandates were removed, group health insurance would be much lower than $13,000.  The tax subsidy would be much less than $2,000 annually.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>jimpierq: &#8220;There is absolutely no way the price (because of the group purchase) is better for close to half of those employees if the subsidy is not calculated in.&#8221;</em></p>
<p>How do you figure?  According to McKinsey and Co survey, the average cost for group health insurance for a family of four is about $13,000 annually.  The majority of households have a marginal tax rate of 15%.  So the tax subsidy for employer-based health insurance is less than $2,000 for a majority of families.</p>
<p>If state insurance mandates were removed, group health insurance would be much lower than $13,000.  The tax subsidy would be much less than $2,000 annually.</p>
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		<title>By: Methinks</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/08/health-care-vs-health-insurance.html/comment-page-2#comment-57817</link>
		<dc:creator>Methinks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Aug 2009 16:14:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=5962#comment-57817</guid>
		<description>Jim, risk and spending are the same thing.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The risk you&#039;re hedging against is a large expenditure to treat a health outcome.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;As John Dewey pointed out, a woman may know that she wants to become pregnant, but she cannot know when that will happen, if that will happen and how much it will cost if it should happen.  She can smooth the cost of a potential pregnancy by either saving a lot of money before she becomes pregnant to prepare for a potentially large expense (self insuring) or an insurance company can translate that risk and the likely cost associated with it into series of premiums.  &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Nobody should be mandated to pay for pregnancy insurance if they don&#039;t want it.  I&#039;m just saying that it&#039;s perfectly reasonable for an insurance company to price and offer such insurance to those who wish to buy it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jim, risk and spending are the same thing.</p>
<p>The risk you&#39;re hedging against is a large expenditure to treat a health outcome.</p>
<p>As John Dewey pointed out, a woman may know that she wants to become pregnant, but she cannot know when that will happen, if that will happen and how much it will cost if it should happen.  She can smooth the cost of a potential pregnancy by either saving a lot of money before she becomes pregnant to prepare for a potentially large expense (self insuring) or an insurance company can translate that risk and the likely cost associated with it into series of premiums.  </p>
<p>Nobody should be mandated to pay for pregnancy insurance if they don&#39;t want it.  I&#39;m just saying that it&#39;s perfectly reasonable for an insurance company to price and offer such insurance to those who wish to buy it.</p>
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		<title>By: jimpierq</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/08/health-care-vs-health-insurance.html/comment-page-2#comment-57805</link>
		<dc:creator>jimpierq</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Aug 2009 15:27:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=5962#comment-57805</guid>
		<description>At some stage the actuaries would price the coverage such that it would no longer be economical for the consumer.  The market would sort out what age that might be, but I consider it unlikely it would be much older than 65.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At some stage the actuaries would price the coverage such that it would no longer be economical for the consumer.  The market would sort out what age that might be, but I consider it unlikely it would be much older than 65.</p>
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		<title>By: jimpierq</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/08/health-care-vs-health-insurance.html/comment-page-2#comment-57804</link>
		<dc:creator>jimpierq</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Aug 2009 15:22:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=5962#comment-57804</guid>
		<description>Housing is a major expense.  We could get together on that too.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Here&#039;s the thing: it is highly unlikely that all, say, 500 employees at some firm would agree to coverage provided by the same insurer and with essentially the same coverage, and that they could not maintain if they left the company, were it not for some outside enticement, such as a near-50% government subsidy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Housing is a major expense.  We could get together on that too.</p>
<p>Here&#39;s the thing: it is highly unlikely that all, say, 500 employees at some firm would agree to coverage provided by the same insurer and with essentially the same coverage, and that they could not maintain if they left the company, were it not for some outside enticement, such as a near-50% government subsidy.</p>
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		<title>By: jimpierq</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/08/health-care-vs-health-insurance.html/comment-page-2#comment-57803</link>
		<dc:creator>jimpierq</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Aug 2009 15:19:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=5962#comment-57803</guid>
		<description>&lt;But the solution is not to eliminate health insurance.&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I don&#039;t believe I suggested any such thing.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;The solution is to eliminate government interference. The free market will then determine what features health insurance should have.&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I agree 100%  I think employer-provided insurance would gradually go the way of the dinosaur, because of the issue of consumers&#039; preferences and needs varying considerably, and because of the need for portability.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&lt;But the solution is not to eliminate health insurance.&gt;</p>
<p>I don&#39;t believe I suggested any such thing.</p>
<p>&lt;The solution is to eliminate government interference. The free market will then determine what features health insurance should have.&gt;</p>
<p>I agree 100%  I think employer-provided insurance would gradually go the way of the dinosaur, because of the issue of consumers&#39; preferences and needs varying considerably, and because of the need for portability.</p>
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		<title>By: johndewey</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/08/health-care-vs-health-insurance.html/comment-page-2#comment-57781</link>
		<dc:creator>johndewey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Aug 2009 14:10:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=5962#comment-57781</guid>
		<description>I disagree with your limited definition of insurance.  But it really doesn&#039;t matter whether you call it insurance or prepaid health care or whatever.  Insurors do transform the uncertain timing and uncertain cost of health expenditures into a certain, regular payment.  We know there is an economic value in doing that, because health insurance was growing even before Congress granted tax exempt status to this benefit.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I agree that government mandates and restrictions on interstate purchase have made health insurance much more costly than it should be.  Favorable government tax treatment of employer provided insurance has increased demand for health expenditure insurance.  But the solution is not to eliminate health insurance.  The solution is to eliminate government interference.  The free market will then determine what features health insurance should have.  IMO, employer-based health insurance would remain the norm.  but who can know?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I disagree with your limited definition of insurance.  But it really doesn&#39;t matter whether you call it insurance or prepaid health care or whatever.  Insurors do transform the uncertain timing and uncertain cost of health expenditures into a certain, regular payment.  We know there is an economic value in doing that, because health insurance was growing even before Congress granted tax exempt status to this benefit.</p>
<p>I agree that government mandates and restrictions on interstate purchase have made health insurance much more costly than it should be.  Favorable government tax treatment of employer provided insurance has increased demand for health expenditure insurance.  But the solution is not to eliminate health insurance.  The solution is to eliminate government interference.  The free market will then determine what features health insurance should have.  IMO, employer-based health insurance would remain the norm.  but who can know?</p>
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		<title>By: johndewey</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/08/health-care-vs-health-insurance.html/comment-page-2#comment-57778</link>
		<dc:creator>johndewey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Aug 2009 14:02:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=5962#comment-57778</guid>
		<description>Few items we buy are costly enough that group discounts would overcome the overhead group buying entails.  But we do take advantage of group buying power for some products.  Credit unions negotiate deals with auto dealers on behalf of their members.  Employers, professional groups, and social groups negotiate deals with hotels and restaurants.  AARP negotiates deals for its members.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Few items we buy are costly enough that group discounts would overcome the overhead group buying entails.  But we do take advantage of group buying power for some products.  Credit unions negotiate deals with auto dealers on behalf of their members.  Employers, professional groups, and social groups negotiate deals with hotels and restaurants.  AARP negotiates deals for its members.</p>
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