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	<title>Comments on: No skin in the game</title>
	<atom:link href="http://cafehayek.com/2009/08/no-skin-in-the-game.html/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/08/no-skin-in-the-game.html</link>
	<description>where orders emerge</description>
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		<title>By: JB</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/08/no-skin-in-the-game.html/comment-page-1#comment-179201</link>
		<dc:creator>JB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Aug 2009 00:44:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6058#comment-179201</guid>
		<description>Announcing is one thing; closing loans is another.  I would check with the California Housing Insurance Fund to see if any of the loans described in the press release were actually made.  My bet is any teachers who applied either didn&#039;t qualify or were bait-and-switched into a subprime loan sold to Wall Street.  Lenders made more money selling subprime loans to Wall Street than prime loans to Fannie or Freddie. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Announcing is one thing; closing loans is another.  I would check with the California Housing Insurance Fund to see if any of the loans described in the press release were actually made.  My bet is any teachers who applied either didn&#8217;t qualify or were bait-and-switched into a subprime loan sold to Wall Street.  Lenders made more money selling subprime loans to Wall Street than prime loans to Fannie or Freddie.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/08/no-skin-in-the-game.html/comment-page-1#comment-179200</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Aug 2009 00:36:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6058#comment-179200</guid>
		<description>I think, JB, that it&#039;s because it&#039;s very interesting to see such living, breathing history.  It&#039;s exhibit IA for what was going on for the past decade.  

The most interesting part, to me, is that I had absolutely, positively no idea this was going on- even until last year when the crash hit- and I guarantee you the 95% or more of our population that are tuned-out, videophiles had no idea either.  Amazing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think, JB, that it&#8217;s because it&#8217;s very interesting to see such living, breathing history.  It&#8217;s exhibit IA for what was going on for the past decade.  </p>
<p>The most interesting part, to me, is that I had absolutely, positively no idea this was going on- even until last year when the crash hit- and I guarantee you the 95% or more of our population that are tuned-out, videophiles had no idea either.  Amazing.</p>
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		<title>By: JB</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/08/no-skin-in-the-game.html/comment-page-1#comment-179192</link>
		<dc:creator>JB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Aug 2009 22:02:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6058#comment-179192</guid>
		<description>This program was announced in 2000!  It has been defunct a long time. Why are you posting about a defunct, nine-year old program?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This program was announced in 2000!  It has been defunct a long time. Why are you posting about a defunct, nine-year old program?</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/08/no-skin-in-the-game.html/comment-page-1#comment-178903</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Aug 2009 02:27:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6058#comment-178903</guid>
		<description>Er, yeah I guess that does make a difference. Ouch.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Er, yeah I guess that does make a difference. Ouch.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/08/no-skin-in-the-game.html/comment-page-1#comment-178885</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Aug 2009 00:10:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6058#comment-178885</guid>
		<description>&quot;A starting salary for a California public school teacher is $29,000 a year, according to the California Teachers Association, while the average teacher’s salary is $44,000.&quot;  

Here is a funny problem... why is teacher pay so low (especially when we hear of shortages of qualified teachers)?  

My guess is that the school system has a monopoly on pay.  There are few opportunities for skilled teachers to increase their salaries by changing schools... there is only one employer.  The school system can afford to underpay teachers and teachers have to take it.  Some people get in the profession as kid-helping idealists, others like the hours.  In any case, the state has managed to set pay that attracts as many people as possible for a low salary.  Because the school systems have no competition for labor prices, they can keep salaries low.  

Another consideration is that the most desirable teachers will be skilled in math or science.  These skills are marketable outside the education industry... so few people will see suffiecient incentive to teach given the trade-offs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;A starting salary for a California public school teacher is $29,000 a year, according to the California Teachers Association, while the average teacher’s salary is $44,000.&#8221;  </p>
<p>Here is a funny problem&#8230; why is teacher pay so low (especially when we hear of shortages of qualified teachers)?  </p>
<p>My guess is that the school system has a monopoly on pay.  There are few opportunities for skilled teachers to increase their salaries by changing schools&#8230; there is only one employer.  The school system can afford to underpay teachers and teachers have to take it.  Some people get in the profession as kid-helping idealists, others like the hours.  In any case, the state has managed to set pay that attracts as many people as possible for a low salary.  Because the school systems have no competition for labor prices, they can keep salaries low.  </p>
<p>Another consideration is that the most desirable teachers will be skilled in math or science.  These skills are marketable outside the education industry&#8230; so few people will see suffiecient incentive to teach given the trade-offs.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/08/no-skin-in-the-game.html/comment-page-1#comment-178883</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Aug 2009 00:03:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6058#comment-178883</guid>
		<description>Drivers ed teachers in my public school district make $150,000 per year (not in California by the way).  I was thinking of asking them for a loan....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Drivers ed teachers in my public school district make $150,000 per year (not in California by the way).  I was thinking of asking them for a loan&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Dallas Weaver</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/08/no-skin-in-the-game.html/comment-page-1#comment-178846</link>
		<dc:creator>Dallas Weaver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2009 20:55:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6058#comment-178846</guid>
		<description>Funny!!! How are they computing the average pay at 44K when none of the Calif. teachers I know earn less that 75K.  Are all the people I know on the top end?  Perhaps along with ignoring that teachers are only working about 8 months/yr, they must be counting part time teachers and substitutes.  

Figures don&#039;t lie, but liers figure.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Funny!!! How are they computing the average pay at 44K when none of the Calif. teachers I know earn less that 75K.  Are all the people I know on the top end?  Perhaps along with ignoring that teachers are only working about 8 months/yr, they must be counting part time teachers and substitutes.  </p>
<p>Figures don&#8217;t lie, but liers figure.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve C.</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/08/no-skin-in-the-game.html/comment-page-1#comment-178714</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve C.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2009 13:58:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6058#comment-178714</guid>
		<description>Another demonstration of the law of unintended consequences.

A. Home prices in California are rising into the stratosphere.

B. Middle class workers can not afford to own homes because their pay would not support the mortgages required to own a home in California.

Solution: Make buying a home for middle class workers easier by reducing the initial cost to buy a home.

Why are home prices rising? Demand is greater than supply.

What to do? Create more demand!

Demand will create more supply.

Perpetual motion.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another demonstration of the law of unintended consequences.</p>
<p>A. Home prices in California are rising into the stratosphere.</p>
<p>B. Middle class workers can not afford to own homes because their pay would not support the mortgages required to own a home in California.</p>
<p>Solution: Make buying a home for middle class workers easier by reducing the initial cost to buy a home.</p>
<p>Why are home prices rising? Demand is greater than supply.</p>
<p>What to do? Create more demand!</p>
<p>Demand will create more supply.</p>
<p>Perpetual motion.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/08/no-skin-in-the-game.html/comment-page-1#comment-178708</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2009 13:33:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6058#comment-178708</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m sure that it seemed like a good idea at the time...

I&#039;m sure that kinds of programs have nothing to do with California&#039;s current financial crisis.

I also wonder whose idea it was. I assume it was someone in the teacher system and that Wells Fargo was just the vendor. Who wouldn&#039;t bid on this when the state and federal government promised to take on all of the risk?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m sure that it seemed like a good idea at the time&#8230;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m sure that kinds of programs have nothing to do with California&#8217;s current financial crisis.</p>
<p>I also wonder whose idea it was. I assume it was someone in the teacher system and that Wells Fargo was just the vendor. Who wouldn&#8217;t bid on this when the state and federal government promised to take on all of the risk?</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/08/no-skin-in-the-game.html/comment-page-1#comment-178707</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2009 13:29:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6058#comment-178707</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s a good question, but I&#039;m kind of guessing Russ would have mentioned it if there was that stipulation.  I&#039;m not sure it really matters though.  I don&#039;t know what percentage of teachers in the state of CA belong to the teacher&#039;s union, but I&#039;m guessing it&#039;s high, very high.  So all the CA legislature has to do is qualify it by the job unionees hold and not by unionization and their pre-French Revolution ideas of feudalism can be seeded.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s a good question, but I&#8217;m kind of guessing Russ would have mentioned it if there was that stipulation.  I&#8217;m not sure it really matters though.  I don&#8217;t know what percentage of teachers in the state of CA belong to the teacher&#8217;s union, but I&#8217;m guessing it&#8217;s high, very high.  So all the CA legislature has to do is qualify it by the job unionees hold and not by unionization and their pre-French Revolution ideas of feudalism can be seeded.</p>
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		<title>By: I_am_a_lead_pencil</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/08/no-skin-in-the-game.html/comment-page-1#comment-178696</link>
		<dc:creator>I_am_a_lead_pencil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2009 12:50:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6058#comment-178696</guid>
		<description>Russ,

I wonder how many of these program loans went bad (foreclosure or workout) vs. other loans of a similar size, location and credit profile? </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Russ,</p>
<p>I wonder how many of these program loans went bad (foreclosure or workout) vs. other loans of a similar size, location and credit profile?</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/08/no-skin-in-the-game.html/comment-page-1#comment-178687</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2009 12:13:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6058#comment-178687</guid>
		<description>whoops.  Checked the date and boy is my face red!  That is how we got into this mess.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>whoops.  Checked the date and boy is my face red!  That is how we got into this mess.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/08/no-skin-in-the-game.html/comment-page-1#comment-178684</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2009 12:11:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6058#comment-178684</guid>
		<description>Isn&#039;t this how we got into the this mess?  Is this wise?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Isn&#8217;t this how we got into the this mess?  Is this wise?</p>
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		<title>By: JohnK</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/08/no-skin-in-the-game.html/comment-page-1#comment-178679</link>
		<dc:creator>JohnK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2009 11:20:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6058#comment-178679</guid>
		<description>I just ran some numbers through a mortgage calculator.  A 30yr $200K loan at 7% will have a monthly payment of around $1300.  Payments like that with a $44K/yr salary is crazy, and on $29K/yr salary is downright impossible.
It makes me wonder what these people are thinking, or if they are thinking at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just ran some numbers through a mortgage calculator.  A 30yr $200K loan at 7% will have a monthly payment of around $1300.  Payments like that with a $44K/yr salary is crazy, and on $29K/yr salary is downright impossible.<br />
It makes me wonder what these people are thinking, or if they are thinking at all.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/08/no-skin-in-the-game.html/comment-page-1#comment-178677</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2009 11:05:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6058#comment-178677</guid>
		<description>
maybe you guys should look at that date</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>maybe you guys should look at that date</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/08/no-skin-in-the-game.html/comment-page-1#comment-178676</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2009 10:51:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6058#comment-178676</guid>
		<description>Matt,

You said the word that I was just thinking about, union.

I wonder if there is someone posting here that can let us know down the road, or even at present, if there is a provision in this little plan that will require the teacher to be a member of the/a Teacher&#039;s Union in order to qualify for this public trough; of if such a provision becomes the de facto hinge upon which the approval of this sweetheart loan swings.

The socialist would get double their (our) money if union membership is required.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matt,</p>
<p>You said the word that I was just thinking about, union.</p>
<p>I wonder if there is someone posting here that can let us know down the road, or even at present, if there is a provision in this little plan that will require the teacher to be a member of the/a Teacher&#8217;s Union in order to qualify for this public trough; of if such a provision becomes the de facto hinge upon which the approval of this sweetheart loan swings.</p>
<p>The socialist would get double their (our) money if union membership is required.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/08/no-skin-in-the-game.html/comment-page-1#comment-178675</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2009 10:31:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6058#comment-178675</guid>
		<description>“The state of California is committed to assisting educators achieve the dream of homeownership,” 

But apparently not committed to anyone else.  When I worked in California, I started off at $29,000.  Apparently, I was not as imprtant as a teacher.  I guess all men are created equal, until you join a union.  Then you are definitely in a higher class.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“The state of California is committed to assisting educators achieve the dream of homeownership,” </p>
<p>But apparently not committed to anyone else.  When I worked in California, I started off at $29,000.  Apparently, I was not as imprtant as a teacher.  I guess all men are created equal, until you join a union.  Then you are definitely in a higher class.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/08/no-skin-in-the-game.html/comment-page-1#comment-178673</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2009 10:05:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6058#comment-178673</guid>
		<description>Let me paraphrase muirduck on what he has stated as the socialist position on such things.

&quot;Doing it again, is not doing it again.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let me paraphrase muirduck on what he has stated as the socialist position on such things.</p>
<p>&#8220;Doing it again, is not doing it again.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/08/no-skin-in-the-game.html/comment-page-1#comment-178672</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2009 09:49:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6058#comment-178672</guid>
		<description>Ha!  The perverse incentive will backfire in two ways: some educators will get themselves into mortgages that, despite the sweet deal, will cause personal budgets to be extended beyond a reasonable amount &lt;b&gt;and&lt;/b&gt; will attract folks to the profession that really have no desire to educate students.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ha!  The perverse incentive will backfire in two ways: some educators will get themselves into mortgages that, despite the sweet deal, will cause personal budgets to be extended beyond a reasonable amount <b>and</b> will attract folks to the profession that really have no desire to educate students.</p>
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		<title>By: Roger</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/08/no-skin-in-the-game.html/comment-page-1#comment-178655</link>
		<dc:creator>Roger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2009 03:51:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6058#comment-178655</guid>
		<description>Can&#039;t we just put them in barracks, excuse me, &quot;dormatories&quot; (for singles) and family housing like the military does? </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can&#8217;t we just put them in barracks, excuse me, &#8220;dormatories&#8221; (for singles) and family housing like the military does?</p>
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