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	<title>Comments on: Destroying Straw Men Does Not Strengthen Protectionism</title>
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	<description>where orders emerge</description>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/destroying-straw-men-does-not-strengthen-protectionism.html/comment-page-1#comment-183349</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2009 04:04:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6607#comment-183349</guid>
		<description>muir--

CA is not some vague hand-waving argument.  It can be quite simply laid out and understood mathematically with very basic noncontroversial assumptions.  

If you have an MD, then I presume you have at least a linear algebra education in mathematics.  It is quite easy to lay out the 2 person multiproduct case, and almost trivial to lay out the 2 person 2 product case.  When you do, you will speak differently about CA.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>muir&#8211;</p>
<p>CA is not some vague hand-waving argument.  It can be quite simply laid out and understood mathematically with very basic noncontroversial assumptions.  </p>
<p>If you have an MD, then I presume you have at least a linear algebra education in mathematics.  It is quite easy to lay out the 2 person multiproduct case, and almost trivial to lay out the 2 person 2 product case.  When you do, you will speak differently about CA.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/destroying-straw-men-does-not-strengthen-protectionism.html/comment-page-1#comment-183280</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Sep 2009 22:29:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6607#comment-183280</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Ethiopia has - almost uniquely in Africa - virtually no private sector business at all.[1] There are no Patent Laws in Ethiopia.[2] Many government owned properties during the previous regime have now been transferred to pro-government enterprises in the name of privatization.&lt;/i&gt;and&lt;i&gt;Furthermore, the Ethiopian constitution defines the right to own land as belonging only to &quot;the state and the people&quot;, but citizens may only lease land (up to 99 years), and are unable to mortgage, sell, or own it.[3] Various groups and political parties have sought for full privatization of land, while other opposition parties are against privatization and favor communal ownership.&lt;/i&gt;Muirgeo - you&#039;ve been punked and pwned.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Ethiopia has &#8211; almost uniquely in Africa &#8211; virtually no private sector business at all.[1] There are no Patent Laws in Ethiopia.[2] Many government owned properties during the previous regime have now been transferred to pro-government enterprises in the name of privatization.</i>and<i>Furthermore, the Ethiopian constitution defines the right to own land as belonging only to &#8220;the state and the people&#8221;, but citizens may only lease land (up to 99 years), and are unable to mortgage, sell, or own it.[3] Various groups and political parties have sought for full privatization of land, while other opposition parties are against privatization and favor communal ownership.</i>Muirgeo &#8211; you&#8217;ve been punked and pwned.</p>
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		<title>By: MWG</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/destroying-straw-men-does-not-strengthen-protectionism.html/comment-page-1#comment-183273</link>
		<dc:creator>MWG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Sep 2009 22:22:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6607#comment-183273</guid>
		<description>&quot;Sure in Ethiopia the means of everyman for himself are intact...&quot;

You sure about that?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Ethiopia</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Sure in Ethiopia the means of everyman for himself are intact&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>You sure about that?</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Ethiopia" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Ethiopia</a></p>
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		<title>By: Nathan Scott</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/destroying-straw-men-does-not-strengthen-protectionism.html/comment-page-1#comment-183167</link>
		<dc:creator>Nathan Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Sep 2009 01:26:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6607#comment-183167</guid>
		<description>Absolutely.  I have a cheaper, higher quality car, computer, tv, wood floor, clothing, shoes, dishes and just about any other capital expenditure that tangibly improves my day to day life.  I have more efficient windows, doors, insulation in my house, investments that have all paid for themselves in just a couple years.  I feed my dog high quality, slightly more expensive food that has given her a noticeable improvement in her older years.  There are very few places I would say I&#039;m paying more in.  Perhaps diesel for my car, but accounting for inflation, I&#039;m still paying relatively low prices for the amount of value I get in a single gallon of fuel, and plan to make my next car a plug in hybrid so I can avoid the impending price increases in oil.

Markets are essentially solving all the problems liberals have devoted their lives to forcing people into with governments, while the rest of us are actually enjoying the relative ease at which capitalism has given to our lives.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Absolutely.  I have a cheaper, higher quality car, computer, tv, wood floor, clothing, shoes, dishes and just about any other capital expenditure that tangibly improves my day to day life.  I have more efficient windows, doors, insulation in my house, investments that have all paid for themselves in just a couple years.  I feed my dog high quality, slightly more expensive food that has given her a noticeable improvement in her older years.  There are very few places I would say I&#8217;m paying more in.  Perhaps diesel for my car, but accounting for inflation, I&#8217;m still paying relatively low prices for the amount of value I get in a single gallon of fuel, and plan to make my next car a plug in hybrid so I can avoid the impending price increases in oil.</p>
<p>Markets are essentially solving all the problems liberals have devoted their lives to forcing people into with governments, while the rest of us are actually enjoying the relative ease at which capitalism has given to our lives.</p>
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		<title>By: Mandeville</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/destroying-straw-men-does-not-strengthen-protectionism.html/comment-page-1#comment-183159</link>
		<dc:creator>Mandeville</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 22:53:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6607#comment-183159</guid>
		<description>In haste I wrote &quot;If their all&quot; but meant &quot;If there are&quot;.

Please understand that &quot;free trade&quot; creates maximum wealth. It does not matter if the trade is only partially free. The more interference, the less wealth produced, and vice versa. This is proven fact if you study theory. It is not opinion. Nor, as some here have mused, is it ideology.

Now, if someone wants to defend free trade on moral or ethical grounds, that would be a different matter. That would be an ideological argument unrelated to the utility of free trade.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In haste I wrote &#8220;If their all&#8221; but meant &#8220;If there are&#8221;.</p>
<p>Please understand that &#8220;free trade&#8221; creates maximum wealth. It does not matter if the trade is only partially free. The more interference, the less wealth produced, and vice versa. This is proven fact if you study theory. It is not opinion. Nor, as some here have mused, is it ideology.</p>
<p>Now, if someone wants to defend free trade on moral or ethical grounds, that would be a different matter. That would be an ideological argument unrelated to the utility of free trade.</p>
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		<title>By: Mandeville</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/destroying-straw-men-does-not-strengthen-protectionism.html/comment-page-1#comment-183158</link>
		<dc:creator>Mandeville</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 22:45:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6607#comment-183158</guid>
		<description>Economics is like math. Please study Von Mises to understand. It is all deductive logic based on a few axioms regarding human nature. The models you refer to are not economic principles, but econometric models that are something entirely different. You are correct regarding them. In particular, study the Law of Comparative Advantage.

Your entire first paragraph is irrelevant to the point I made. Despite any and all market interference, if their all still advantages remaining, then greater total wealth is produced for &quot;both&quot; the buying and selling nations then if the exchange was forbidden.

It&#039;s a fact, but you need to study economics to learn it. I have forgotten more about economics than you&#039;ll ever learn. You may want to try Bastiat or Hazlitt, since you are obviously lazy. You wouldn&#039;t understand &quot;Human Action&quot; or Rothbard&#039;s &quot;Man, Economy, and State&quot;.

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Economics is like math. Please study Von Mises to understand. It is all deductive logic based on a few axioms regarding human nature. The models you refer to are not economic principles, but econometric models that are something entirely different. You are correct regarding them. In particular, study the Law of Comparative Advantage.</p>
<p>Your entire first paragraph is irrelevant to the point I made. Despite any and all market interference, if their all still advantages remaining, then greater total wealth is produced for &#8220;both&#8221; the buying and selling nations then if the exchange was forbidden.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s a fact, but you need to study economics to learn it. I have forgotten more about economics than you&#8217;ll ever learn. You may want to try Bastiat or Hazlitt, since you are obviously lazy. You wouldn&#8217;t understand &#8220;Human Action&#8221; or Rothbard&#8217;s &#8220;Man, Economy, and State&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: John Dewey</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/destroying-straw-men-does-not-strengthen-protectionism.html/comment-page-1#comment-183119</link>
		<dc:creator>John Dewey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 18:37:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6607#comment-183119</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;muirgeo: &quot;Their were no fabulously wealthy Americans during the first 100 years of our nation&quot;&lt;/em&gt;

What causes you to make such assertions on this blog without even the tiniest effort to validate your assumption?  Why do you continue to make such untruthful statements?

If you want to know anything about concentration of wealth during the first century of this nation&#039;s existence, just go to Google and type in any one of these names:

John Jacob Astor
Cornelius Vanderbilt
Stephen Girard
Alexander T. Stewart
Stephen Van Rensselaer </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>muirgeo: &#8220;Their were no fabulously wealthy Americans during the first 100 years of our nation&#8221;</em></p>
<p>What causes you to make such assertions on this blog without even the tiniest effort to validate your assumption?  Why do you continue to make such untruthful statements?</p>
<p>If you want to know anything about concentration of wealth during the first century of this nation&#8217;s existence, just go to Google and type in any one of these names:</p>
<p>John Jacob Astor<br />
Cornelius Vanderbilt<br />
Stephen Girard<br />
Alexander T. Stewart<br />
Stephen Van Rensselaer</p>
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		<title>By: deweaver</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/destroying-straw-men-does-not-strengthen-protectionism.html/comment-page-1#comment-183113</link>
		<dc:creator>deweaver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 16:49:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6607#comment-183113</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t see how &quot;no economies of scale&quot; could possibly be required for free trade to work.  It is often economies of scale that make free trade such a mutual benefit.  If one company or country can provide the worlds supply of a good cheaper than anyone else, they should be the ones doing it.  Everything from computer operating systems (Microsoft) to rare earth elements (china is the worlds primary supplier) utilizes economies of scale to make the world a better place.  

As important and beneficial as trade is for the citizens, it can be detrimental to the ruling political elite.  It becomes harder to use &quot;us vs. them&quot; conflict and threats of war to keep the citizens in line when you depend upon the target of your wrath for critical goods.  

WallMart&#039;s China trade has helped prevent out military industrial complex and China&#039;s military complex of using each other to get drastic budget increases.   </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t see how &#8220;no economies of scale&#8221; could possibly be required for free trade to work.  It is often economies of scale that make free trade such a mutual benefit.  If one company or country can provide the worlds supply of a good cheaper than anyone else, they should be the ones doing it.  Everything from computer operating systems (Microsoft) to rare earth elements (china is the worlds primary supplier) utilizes economies of scale to make the world a better place.  </p>
<p>As important and beneficial as trade is for the citizens, it can be detrimental to the ruling political elite.  It becomes harder to use &#8220;us vs. them&#8221; conflict and threats of war to keep the citizens in line when you depend upon the target of your wrath for critical goods.  </p>
<p>WallMart&#8217;s China trade has helped prevent out military industrial complex and China&#8217;s military complex of using each other to get drastic budget increases.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/destroying-straw-men-does-not-strengthen-protectionism.html/comment-page-1#comment-183112</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 16:38:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6607#comment-183112</guid>
		<description>&quot;The division of labor within a society is no different than the division of labor globally.&quot;  
This statement is false.  Within a given society, there are different means of political control, different economic regulations (labor laws, pollution regulation, land use, etc.), different levels of human capital, different levels of initial wealth distribution, etc.  And each society generally has public services supported by its citizens that provide benefits to its citizens.  Now, all of these differences might not change your opinion regarding whether to support freer trade, but there are significant differences that make international trade more controversial than intranational trade.

&quot;Let’s examine what would happen if consumers changed their behavior in order for jobs to be saved. The first thing they would have to do is to buy everything at the highest possible prices.&quot;  
This is silly hypothetical and the discussion that flows from it is not interesting or educational.  Economics is not a science like math.  Instead, most economists use math to create models to illuminate what might be happening in the real world.  Unfortunately, the real world is messy, the models have often do a poor job of explaining what happens in the real world, and it is generally impossible to set up macroeconomic experiments to test economic theories.  Based on your essay, I suggest you not accuse others of being ignorant about economics. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The division of labor within a society is no different than the division of labor globally.&#8221;<br />
This statement is false.  Within a given society, there are different means of political control, different economic regulations (labor laws, pollution regulation, land use, etc.), different levels of human capital, different levels of initial wealth distribution, etc.  And each society generally has public services supported by its citizens that provide benefits to its citizens.  Now, all of these differences might not change your opinion regarding whether to support freer trade, but there are significant differences that make international trade more controversial than intranational trade.</p>
<p>&#8220;Let’s examine what would happen if consumers changed their behavior in order for jobs to be saved. The first thing they would have to do is to buy everything at the highest possible prices.&#8221;<br />
This is silly hypothetical and the discussion that flows from it is not interesting or educational.  Economics is not a science like math.  Instead, most economists use math to create models to illuminate what might be happening in the real world.  Unfortunately, the real world is messy, the models have often do a poor job of explaining what happens in the real world, and it is generally impossible to set up macroeconomic experiments to test economic theories.  Based on your essay, I suggest you not accuse others of being ignorant about economics.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/destroying-straw-men-does-not-strengthen-protectionism.html/comment-page-1#comment-183097</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 13:57:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6607#comment-183097</guid>
		<description>Wait a minute - I don&#039;t follow.  Who is imposing something on somebody?

You&#039;re taking an unusual amount of interest in my purchases, vidyohs.

RE: &quot;It doesn&#039;t matter to those socialist fools that conditions are different in various places and flooding money into an area that has an established economy will just cause pain, envy, jealousy, and disruption to those areas.&quot;

So what would you propose, vidyohs?  Preventing &quot;these areas&quot; from commanding as high a price as they can because you benevolently want to spare them &quot;pain, envy, jealousy&quot; etc. etc.?  I&#039;m not sure why getting paid more will cause all that pain.  If you really think so, you can feel free to mail half your pay check to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wait a minute &#8211; I don&#8217;t follow.  Who is imposing something on somebody?</p>
<p>You&#8217;re taking an unusual amount of interest in my purchases, vidyohs.</p>
<p>RE: &#8220;It doesn&#8217;t matter to those socialist fools that conditions are different in various places and flooding money into an area that has an established economy will just cause pain, envy, jealousy, and disruption to those areas.&#8221;</p>
<p>So what would you propose, vidyohs?  Preventing &#8220;these areas&#8221; from commanding as high a price as they can because you benevolently want to spare them &#8220;pain, envy, jealousy&#8221; etc. etc.?  I&#8217;m not sure why getting paid more will cause all that pain.  If you really think so, you can feel free to mail half your pay check to me.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/destroying-straw-men-does-not-strengthen-protectionism.html/comment-page-1#comment-183096</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 13:53:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6607#comment-183096</guid>
		<description>The socialism in it is obvious to anyone who knows what socialism is and knows what it looks like in action. It isn&#039;t just having government take over industries and making them state owned.

Socialism is about that faiiiiiiirness and eqqqqqquality (said in the nasal thin whiny voice). Your fair trade coffee is coffee that is bought at artificially jacked up prices which came about in response to pressure brought by those who just have to impose faiiiiiiirness and eqqqqqquality to the whole world and to do it now, so they can feeeeeeeel good about themselves. It doesn&#039;t matter to those socialist fools that conditions are different in various places and flooding money into an area that has an established economy will just cause pain, envy, jealousy, and disruption to those areas. 

But, hey, what hell the fools who push this socialist shit don&#039;t have to live with their results, they live in cushy good &#039;ole USA. But, they can feeeeeeeeel so good about themselves.

People like DK.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The socialism in it is obvious to anyone who knows what socialism is and knows what it looks like in action. It isn&#8217;t just having government take over industries and making them state owned.</p>
<p>Socialism is about that faiiiiiiirness and eqqqqqquality (said in the nasal thin whiny voice). Your fair trade coffee is coffee that is bought at artificially jacked up prices which came about in response to pressure brought by those who just have to impose faiiiiiiirness and eqqqqqquality to the whole world and to do it now, so they can feeeeeeeel good about themselves. It doesn&#8217;t matter to those socialist fools that conditions are different in various places and flooding money into an area that has an established economy will just cause pain, envy, jealousy, and disruption to those areas. </p>
<p>But, hey, what hell the fools who push this socialist shit don&#8217;t have to live with their results, they live in cushy good &#8216;ole USA. But, they can feeeeeeeeel so good about themselves.</p>
<p>People like DK.</p>
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		<title>By: mandeville</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/destroying-straw-men-does-not-strengthen-protectionism.html/comment-page-1#comment-183090</link>
		<dc:creator>mandeville</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 12:54:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6607#comment-183090</guid>
		<description>World wide economic ignorance is a reality. They simply don&#039;t teach it properly in high school. Imagine if people thought math and the other sciences were merely &quot;respectable opinions&quot;, as good as any other. Sadly, economics hasn&#039;t been accepted as deductive logic yet.

I wrote a brief argument against protection that I will include here. The fallacy is to think we must pay more for something in order to &quot;save jobs&quot;.

&quot;Protectionism:				
Even greater wealth accrues to a society that trades with other societies. The division of labor within a society is no different than the division of labor globally. Protecting jobs in America from foreign competition is no different than protecting jobs in one city from being lost to another city. It is no different than protecting the original farmers from competition from those with more fertile land. Protectionism means to protect a company from failure by not allowing consumers’ choices to decide who should succeed and who shouldn’t. It is accomplished politically by distorting the voluntary exchange of property by tariffs, taxes, quotas, penalties and other compulsory measures.

Let’s examine what would happen if consumers changed their behavior in order for jobs to be saved. The first thing they would have to do is to buy everything at the highest possible prices. This would guarantee that inefficient companies would remain profitable and not shut down causing unemployment. But if we did that, we would discover that we couldn’t buy as many things as we do when we seek lower prices. We would have to make a decision of what not to buy that we used to buy before. Once everyone does this, fewer products are made for the society and people lose their jobs making those marginal products. In this case, man has taken a step to undo the division of his labor.

The remaining companies that manufacture essential products are no longer able to find in existence the myriad of marginal goods and services that saved them labor, so they are forced to employ people instead to do things manually. This causes the prices of what they make to rise. Once that happens, the consumers are faced again with making a decision not to buy something, because at the end of the day, they have less money left over than before.

If everything cost more to produce and we always paid the highest prices for everything we bought, we would continuously have to buy less goods and services than before. This process continues until man’s division of labor becomes completely undivided. Eventually, we descend to a tribal existence where each tribe is self sufficient in providing for their totality of needs without the assistance of trade and exchange. Nobody would have anything except their job producing bare essentials for themselves. But, thank God, we would have full employment!

By Americans being free to buy whatever and wherever they want, the savings experienced is the creation of wealth.  New capital investment is then possible, and labor is increasingly divided to provide new goods and services. Those who advocate otherwise, advance a case for the creation of poverty instead.&quot;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>World wide economic ignorance is a reality. They simply don&#8217;t teach it properly in high school. Imagine if people thought math and the other sciences were merely &#8220;respectable opinions&#8221;, as good as any other. Sadly, economics hasn&#8217;t been accepted as deductive logic yet.</p>
<p>I wrote a brief argument against protection that I will include here. The fallacy is to think we must pay more for something in order to &#8220;save jobs&#8221;.</p>
<p>&#8220;Protectionism:<br />
Even greater wealth accrues to a society that trades with other societies. The division of labor within a society is no different than the division of labor globally. Protecting jobs in America from foreign competition is no different than protecting jobs in one city from being lost to another city. It is no different than protecting the original farmers from competition from those with more fertile land. Protectionism means to protect a company from failure by not allowing consumers’ choices to decide who should succeed and who shouldn’t. It is accomplished politically by distorting the voluntary exchange of property by tariffs, taxes, quotas, penalties and other compulsory measures.</p>
<p>Let’s examine what would happen if consumers changed their behavior in order for jobs to be saved. The first thing they would have to do is to buy everything at the highest possible prices. This would guarantee that inefficient companies would remain profitable and not shut down causing unemployment. But if we did that, we would discover that we couldn’t buy as many things as we do when we seek lower prices. We would have to make a decision of what not to buy that we used to buy before. Once everyone does this, fewer products are made for the society and people lose their jobs making those marginal products. In this case, man has taken a step to undo the division of his labor.</p>
<p>The remaining companies that manufacture essential products are no longer able to find in existence the myriad of marginal goods and services that saved them labor, so they are forced to employ people instead to do things manually. This causes the prices of what they make to rise. Once that happens, the consumers are faced again with making a decision not to buy something, because at the end of the day, they have less money left over than before.</p>
<p>If everything cost more to produce and we always paid the highest prices for everything we bought, we would continuously have to buy less goods and services than before. This process continues until man’s division of labor becomes completely undivided. Eventually, we descend to a tribal existence where each tribe is self sufficient in providing for their totality of needs without the assistance of trade and exchange. Nobody would have anything except their job producing bare essentials for themselves. But, thank God, we would have full employment!</p>
<p>By Americans being free to buy whatever and wherever they want, the savings experienced is the creation of wealth.  New capital investment is then possible, and labor is increasingly divided to provide new goods and services. Those who advocate otherwise, advance a case for the creation of poverty instead.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/destroying-straw-men-does-not-strengthen-protectionism.html/comment-page-1#comment-183087</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 12:44:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6607#comment-183087</guid>
		<description>Not at all LCJ - I was specifically responding to a point you made.  Specifically that &quot;too many people&quot; who point to dislocation will forget that &quot;all those people that wouldn&#039;t be better off if their choices available were somehow restricted or altered through government.&quot;

It has nothing to do with the discussion revolving around me - I was responding to something YOU brought up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not at all LCJ &#8211; I was specifically responding to a point you made.  Specifically that &#8220;too many people&#8221; who point to dislocation will forget that &#8220;all those people that wouldn&#8217;t be better off if their choices available were somehow restricted or altered through government.&#8221;</p>
<p>It has nothing to do with the discussion revolving around me &#8211; I was responding to something YOU brought up.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/destroying-straw-men-does-not-strengthen-protectionism.html/comment-page-1#comment-183083</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 10:10:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6607#comment-183083</guid>
		<description>Re: &quot;People are stupid when they think they can wave the magic wand of socialism and make everything in the world just like their own lovely government guaranteed privileged life here in the USA, and not have it cause severe problems in those places where they magic one part of an equation and then walk away smug in their superiority.&quot;I&#039;d be interested in hearing you explain to me how millions of people choosing to buy fair trade coffee is socialism or a reliance on government guarantees. Don&#039;t you ever think before your knee-jerk socialism responses kick in?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: &#8220;People are stupid when they think they can wave the magic wand of socialism and make everything in the world just like their own lovely government guaranteed privileged life here in the USA, and not have it cause severe problems in those places where they magic one part of an equation and then walk away smug in their superiority.&#8221;I&#8217;d be interested in hearing you explain to me how millions of people choosing to buy fair trade coffee is socialism or a reliance on government guarantees. Don&#8217;t you ever think before your knee-jerk socialism responses kick in?</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/destroying-straw-men-does-not-strengthen-protectionism.html/comment-page-1#comment-183077</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 07:19:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6607#comment-183077</guid>
		<description>Results don&#039;t flow from intentions, or &quot;goals&quot;, no matter how good they are. 

I want World Peace(tm). According to you, it&#039;s perfectly acceptable to kill every human being to achieve that.

I suggest you check yourself in your local psychiatry ward. Your megalomaniac tendencies are tiresome.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Results don&#8217;t flow from intentions, or &#8220;goals&#8221;, no matter how good they are. </p>
<p>I want World Peace(tm). According to you, it&#8217;s perfectly acceptable to kill every human being to achieve that.</p>
<p>I suggest you check yourself in your local psychiatry ward. Your megalomaniac tendencies are tiresome.</p>
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		<title>By: Sam Grove</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/destroying-straw-men-does-not-strengthen-protectionism.html/comment-page-1#comment-183073</link>
		<dc:creator>Sam Grove</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 04:53:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6607#comment-183073</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Their were no fabulously wealthy Americans during the first 100 years of our nation&lt;/i&gt;

Riiiiight. Same for Canada and &quot;modern&quot; European states. There&#039;s no concentrated wealth there.
You aren&#039;t aware of it, so it must not exist. Is that how it works?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Their were no fabulously wealthy Americans during the first 100 years of our nation</i></p>
<p>Riiiiight. Same for Canada and &#8220;modern&#8221; European states. There&#8217;s no concentrated wealth there.<br />
You aren&#8217;t aware of it, so it must not exist. Is that how it works?</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/destroying-straw-men-does-not-strengthen-protectionism.html/comment-page-1#comment-183072</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 04:44:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6607#comment-183072</guid>
		<description>The real world simply proves you wrong. There are different degrees of success from one country to the next and even through time in the same country. Better policy away from your favored direction and towards mine has given better results.

Their were no fabulously wealthy Americans during the first 100 years of our nation and we grew just fine with out the &quot;benefit&quot; of concentrated wealth. 

The modern European states and Canada have great success as well with far less concentration of wealth and power. 

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The real world simply proves you wrong. There are different degrees of success from one country to the next and even through time in the same country. Better policy away from your favored direction and towards mine has given better results.</p>
<p>Their were no fabulously wealthy Americans during the first 100 years of our nation and we grew just fine with out the &#8220;benefit&#8221; of concentrated wealth. </p>
<p>The modern European states and Canada have great success as well with far less concentration of wealth and power.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/destroying-straw-men-does-not-strengthen-protectionism.html/comment-page-1#comment-183071</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 04:38:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6607#comment-183071</guid>
		<description>Of course they do. How can you have an end result that is efficient, equitable and just with some sort of awful means as you suggest?

The means are simply having rules that prevent the massive  accumulation of power and wealth.  

In the end there will be no escaping Darwinism. But I&#039;m of the belief that we are different from the other species in that we are able to plan for the betterment of the group and gain advantage by group planning. You all are of the belief that we got here via a system of anything goes, every man for himself rugged individualism and NO group planning is needed. America and the social democracies of the world are superior because we&#039;ve group planned and cooperated better then the non-planning nations and civilizations. 

Sure in Ethiopia the means of everyman for himself are intact as you might wish but the ends SUCK... even for those in power. 

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course they do. How can you have an end result that is efficient, equitable and just with some sort of awful means as you suggest?</p>
<p>The means are simply having rules that prevent the massive  accumulation of power and wealth.  </p>
<p>In the end there will be no escaping Darwinism. But I&#8217;m of the belief that we are different from the other species in that we are able to plan for the betterment of the group and gain advantage by group planning. You all are of the belief that we got here via a system of anything goes, every man for himself rugged individualism and NO group planning is needed. America and the social democracies of the world are superior because we&#8217;ve group planned and cooperated better then the non-planning nations and civilizations. </p>
<p>Sure in Ethiopia the means of everyman for himself are intact as you might wish but the ends SUCK&#8230; even for those in power.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/destroying-straw-men-does-not-strengthen-protectionism.html/comment-page-1#comment-183069</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 04:25:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6607#comment-183069</guid>
		<description>You mean like how it&#039;s working so well for our economy? </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You mean like how it&#8217;s working so well for our economy?</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/destroying-straw-men-does-not-strengthen-protectionism.html/comment-page-1#comment-183068</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 03:17:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6607#comment-183068</guid>
		<description>Ironically, Boudreaux&#039;s hypothetical is itself an attack at a straw man.  Bourdreaux&#039;s example does nothing to address the issues of economies of scale and monopolistic competition raised by Prestowitz.  Instead, Bourdreaux&#039;s letter presents the sort of fairy-tail that can make an open-market advocate look ideological rather than thoughtful.

Even taking Bourdreaux&#039;s fanciful example seriously, there may be a benefit for the Clemson to threaten to not shop in Seneca: If, as a result of the threat, Seneca resumes a more rational shopping strategy, both Seneca and Clemson would gain.  Thus, a retaliatory threat may result in lower overall trade barriers.  GATT and WTO agreements have been negotiated through the exchange of reductions on trade barriers.  The WTO&#039;s enforcement mechanism is to allow retaliatory trade restrictions.  These institutional mechanisms suggest that threatening to impose trade restrictions can actually be an useful means of decreasing trade restrictions.  

In case anyone has the wrong idea, I generally favor freer trade and do not support the decision to increase tariffs on Chinese made tires.  But I also do not favor silly arguments, such as the one made in Boudreaux&#039;s letter.

(A more challenging hypothetical would be:  Seneca and Clemson each have a software company that produce competing computer programs.  It costs $1m to develop and market each program, but very little to distribute and sell additional units.  Each program is, in general, equally useful, but have some different features different users prefer. If Seneca&#039;s residents &quot;irratoinally&quot; support their home-town company&#039;s program, or Seneca&#039;s government restricts the import of Clemson&#039;s program, what happens?  Seneca will be able to sell its product in Clemson at a price that Clemson&#039;s company cannot profitably match and the Clemson company would go out of business.  The Clemson employees are displaced, competition is reduced, and a high-growth shrinks in Clemson.  If Clemson was faced with a Seneca software-tariff, what is the appropriate response?  Such a story probably does not have much application to a narrow market, such as tire manufacturing, but it may be important in some industries. )</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ironically, Boudreaux&#8217;s hypothetical is itself an attack at a straw man.  Bourdreaux&#8217;s example does nothing to address the issues of economies of scale and monopolistic competition raised by Prestowitz.  Instead, Bourdreaux&#8217;s letter presents the sort of fairy-tail that can make an open-market advocate look ideological rather than thoughtful.</p>
<p>Even taking Bourdreaux&#8217;s fanciful example seriously, there may be a benefit for the Clemson to threaten to not shop in Seneca: If, as a result of the threat, Seneca resumes a more rational shopping strategy, both Seneca and Clemson would gain.  Thus, a retaliatory threat may result in lower overall trade barriers.  GATT and WTO agreements have been negotiated through the exchange of reductions on trade barriers.  The WTO&#8217;s enforcement mechanism is to allow retaliatory trade restrictions.  These institutional mechanisms suggest that threatening to impose trade restrictions can actually be an useful means of decreasing trade restrictions.  </p>
<p>In case anyone has the wrong idea, I generally favor freer trade and do not support the decision to increase tariffs on Chinese made tires.  But I also do not favor silly arguments, such as the one made in Boudreaux&#8217;s letter.</p>
<p>(A more challenging hypothetical would be:  Seneca and Clemson each have a software company that produce competing computer programs.  It costs $1m to develop and market each program, but very little to distribute and sell additional units.  Each program is, in general, equally useful, but have some different features different users prefer. If Seneca&#8217;s residents &#8220;irratoinally&#8221; support their home-town company&#8217;s program, or Seneca&#8217;s government restricts the import of Clemson&#8217;s program, what happens?  Seneca will be able to sell its product in Clemson at a price that Clemson&#8217;s company cannot profitably match and the Clemson company would go out of business.  The Clemson employees are displaced, competition is reduced, and a high-growth shrinks in Clemson.  If Clemson was faced with a Seneca software-tariff, what is the appropriate response?  Such a story probably does not have much application to a narrow market, such as tire manufacturing, but it may be important in some industries. )</p>
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