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	<title>Comments on: In the Spirit of Bastiat</title>
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	<description>where orders emerge</description>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/in-the-spirit-of-bastiat.html/comment-page-1#comment-183516</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2009 19:45:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6630#comment-183516</guid>
		<description>My point is that hypothetical man is a big part of the Democrat voting base.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My point is that hypothetical man is a big part of the Democrat voting base.</p>
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		<title>By: John Dewey</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/in-the-spirit-of-bastiat.html/comment-page-1#comment-183513</link>
		<dc:creator>John Dewey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2009 19:42:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6630#comment-183513</guid>
		<description>Not sure what your point is.  I think you started out pointing out that Professor Boudreaux and Professor Roberts never mention workers whose livelihood was destroyed by imports from abroad.  But we seem to have deviated from that to referring to formerly high paid workers who:

- refuse to put money aside for difficult times;
- buy homes with large mortgages;
- have more kids than they can apparently support;
- have been inflicted with high medical bills; and
- have suffered a loss of self-esteem.

I&#039;m not sure I understand why such people should be a concern to me or to the professors. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not sure what your point is.  I think you started out pointing out that Professor Boudreaux and Professor Roberts never mention workers whose livelihood was destroyed by imports from abroad.  But we seem to have deviated from that to referring to formerly high paid workers who:</p>
<p>- refuse to put money aside for difficult times;<br />
- buy homes with large mortgages;<br />
- have more kids than they can apparently support;<br />
- have been inflicted with high medical bills; and<br />
- have suffered a loss of self-esteem.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure I understand why such people should be a concern to me or to the professors.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/in-the-spirit-of-bastiat.html/comment-page-1#comment-183495</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2009 17:59:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6630#comment-183495</guid>
		<description>Well, one would HOPE he would have saved money. But what if he had 5 kids and a big mortgage and medical bills and who knows what else? Think of the children!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, one would HOPE he would have saved money. But what if he had 5 kids and a big mortgage and medical bills and who knows what else? Think of the children!</p>
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		<title>By: John Dewey</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/in-the-spirit-of-bastiat.html/comment-page-1#comment-183493</link>
		<dc:creator>John Dewey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2009 17:57:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6630#comment-183493</guid>
		<description>Arrowsmith: &quot;when a $40/hour union man is suddenly forced into a Wal Mart job&quot;

First, I doubt that happens very much.  Why would Walmart even bother to hire a man who thinks he is too good for the job offerred?  Walmart generally rejects dozens of applicants for every person it hires.

Why would a person who earned $80K a year find himself without funds to tide him over until he was retrained?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Arrowsmith: &#8220;when a $40/hour union man is suddenly forced into a Wal Mart job&#8221;</p>
<p>First, I doubt that happens very much.  Why would Walmart even bother to hire a man who thinks he is too good for the job offerred?  Walmart generally rejects dozens of applicants for every person it hires.</p>
<p>Why would a person who earned $80K a year find himself without funds to tide him over until he was retrained?</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/in-the-spirit-of-bastiat.html/comment-page-1#comment-183481</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2009 17:19:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6630#comment-183481</guid>
		<description>I agree with everything you say - but the politics of it are another story. Just go over to any leftist blog and they will bitch &amp; moan about the decline of unions and how that is proof of America&#039;s moral decline.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with everything you say &#8211; but the politics of it are another story. Just go over to any leftist blog and they will bitch &amp; moan about the decline of unions and how that is proof of America&#8217;s moral decline.</p>
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		<title>By: John Dewey</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/in-the-spirit-of-bastiat.html/comment-page-1#comment-183480</link>
		<dc:creator>John Dewey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2009 17:13:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6630#comment-183480</guid>
		<description>What has happened, Arrowsmith, is that blue collar workers are now coming to grips with their real worth.  Those who have retrained as radiology technicians or as truck drivers or as auto mechanics or as computer technicians have probably been able to maintain liveable earnings.

It&#039;s really simple, Arrowsmith.  American consumers decided they were no longer going to pay premiums for the goods produced by overpaid union factory workers.  That battle was fought and the outcome decided 25 years ago.  You may not have been around then, but retailers such as Walmart advertised heavily that they sold American made products.  Bob Hope appeared on television every hour to plead with consumers to Buy American.   Lee Iacocca pushed his American-made K-cars.  And the American consumer ignored them all.  The American consumer realized that he was better off paying less for a quality Toyota.  He discovered that the toaster made in Taiwan for half what it cost to produce in Ohio was just as good.

So what has happened to the U.S. economy the past 25 years?  Solid economic growth.  Our nation&#039;s production of both goods and services are much higher than 30 years ago.  The boogeyman the unions tried to scare us with - inexpensive imports - didn&#039;t hurt us at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What has happened, Arrowsmith, is that blue collar workers are now coming to grips with their real worth.  Those who have retrained as radiology technicians or as truck drivers or as auto mechanics or as computer technicians have probably been able to maintain liveable earnings.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s really simple, Arrowsmith.  American consumers decided they were no longer going to pay premiums for the goods produced by overpaid union factory workers.  That battle was fought and the outcome decided 25 years ago.  You may not have been around then, but retailers such as Walmart advertised heavily that they sold American made products.  Bob Hope appeared on television every hour to plead with consumers to Buy American.   Lee Iacocca pushed his American-made K-cars.  And the American consumer ignored them all.  The American consumer realized that he was better off paying less for a quality Toyota.  He discovered that the toaster made in Taiwan for half what it cost to produce in Ohio was just as good.</p>
<p>So what has happened to the U.S. economy the past 25 years?  Solid economic growth.  Our nation&#8217;s production of both goods and services are much higher than 30 years ago.  The boogeyman the unions tried to scare us with &#8211; inexpensive imports &#8211; didn&#8217;t hurt us at all.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/in-the-spirit-of-bastiat.html/comment-page-1#comment-183477</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2009 17:03:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6630#comment-183477</guid>
		<description>Maybe not millions, but definitely hundreds of thousands.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe not millions, but definitely hundreds of thousands.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/in-the-spirit-of-bastiat.html/comment-page-1#comment-183476</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2009 17:03:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6630#comment-183476</guid>
		<description>I think it has more to do with the fact that manufacturing jobs are considered prestigious and high self-esteem inducing. Whereas when a $40/hour union man is suddenly forced into a Wal Mart job it&#039;s a huge blow to his self esteem.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it has more to do with the fact that manufacturing jobs are considered prestigious and high self-esteem inducing. Whereas when a $40/hour union man is suddenly forced into a Wal Mart job it&#8217;s a huge blow to his self esteem.</p>
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		<title>By: John Dewey</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/in-the-spirit-of-bastiat.html/comment-page-1#comment-183471</link>
		<dc:creator>John Dewey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2009 16:55:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6630#comment-183471</guid>
		<description>&lt;EM&gt;Arrowsmith: &quot;the rate at which imports are killing native industries is staggering.&quot;Arrowsmith: &quot;In this recession alone we&#039;ve lost several million manufacturing jobs - gone forever&quot;&lt;/EM&gt;Are you claiming that the manufacturing jobs lost in this recession were lost due to imports? Or have you shifted your argument and now blaming the global recession for the &quot;killing of native industries&quot;?I can understand how automating the job of a worker might eliminate an American job forever. I can understand how cheaper or more productive labor in China might eliminate an American job forever. I do not understand, though, how a recession would necessarily eliminate an American job forever.I&#039;m curious, ArrowSmith. Had you been commenting about the state of our economy in the mid-20th century, would you have complained that grain combines had caused staggering loss of American farm jobs? After all, in 1900, nearly 40% of the U.S. workforce held agriculture jobs. A century later, only 3% did. How did our nation survive that staggering loss of jobs?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>Arrowsmith: &#8220;the rate at which imports are killing native industries is staggering.&#8221;Arrowsmith: &#8220;In this recession alone we&#8217;ve lost several million manufacturing jobs &#8211; gone forever&#8221;</em>Are you claiming that the manufacturing jobs lost in this recession were lost due to imports? Or have you shifted your argument and now blaming the global recession for the &#8220;killing of native industries&#8221;?I can understand how automating the job of a worker might eliminate an American job forever. I can understand how cheaper or more productive labor in China might eliminate an American job forever. I do not understand, though, how a recession would necessarily eliminate an American job forever.I&#8217;m curious, ArrowSmith. Had you been commenting about the state of our economy in the mid-20th century, would you have complained that grain combines had caused staggering loss of American farm jobs? After all, in 1900, nearly 40% of the U.S. workforce held agriculture jobs. A century later, only 3% did. How did our nation survive that staggering loss of jobs?</p>
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		<title>By: John Dewey</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/in-the-spirit-of-bastiat.html/comment-page-1#comment-183469</link>
		<dc:creator>John Dewey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2009 16:39:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6630#comment-183469</guid>
		<description>Arrowsmith: &quot;In this recession alone we&#039;ve lost several million manufacturing jobs&quot; 

That&#039;s one statistic I have not seen.  Can you provide a link to any data showing that &quot;we&#039;ve lost several million manufacturing jobs - gone forever&quot;?
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Arrowsmith: &#8220;In this recession alone we&#8217;ve lost several million manufacturing jobs&#8221; </p>
<p>That&#8217;s one statistic I have not seen.  Can you provide a link to any data showing that &#8220;we&#8217;ve lost several million manufacturing jobs &#8211; gone forever&#8221;?</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/in-the-spirit-of-bastiat.html/comment-page-1#comment-183467</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2009 16:33:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6630#comment-183467</guid>
		<description>Sure.  I&#039;m just alluding to (1) the same could be accomplished by the Fed simply choosing never to intervene in the monetary supply; and (2) even a gold standard per se doesn&#039;t necessarily preclude fractional reserve banking from growing the money supply.

It&#039;s the act of a central bank raising the ceiling of a fiat money supply, whatever the ceiling may be, that constitutes a confiscatory redistribution of wealth to the central bank.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sure.  I&#8217;m just alluding to (1) the same could be accomplished by the Fed simply choosing never to intervene in the monetary supply; and (2) even a gold standard per se doesn&#8217;t necessarily preclude fractional reserve banking from growing the money supply.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s the act of a central bank raising the ceiling of a fiat money supply, whatever the ceiling may be, that constitutes a confiscatory redistribution of wealth to the central bank.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/in-the-spirit-of-bastiat.html/comment-page-1#comment-183462</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2009 15:43:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6630#comment-183462</guid>
		<description>I didn&#039;t dispute the output statistics. What isn&#039;t disputable is that manufacturing jobs keep disappearing. In this recession alone we&#039;ve lost several million manufacturing jobs - gone forever.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I didn&#8217;t dispute the output statistics. What isn&#8217;t disputable is that manufacturing jobs keep disappearing. In this recession alone we&#8217;ve lost several million manufacturing jobs &#8211; gone forever.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/in-the-spirit-of-bastiat.html/comment-page-1#comment-183461</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2009 15:42:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6630#comment-183461</guid>
		<description>Oh that&#039;s just lovely. Taking a 50-year old manufacturing worker who&#039;s been making $40/hour and telling him that at best he can make $12.50/hour now. I bet you&#039;re a professional that makes 6-figures. How would you feel to have such a downgrade in life?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh that&#8217;s just lovely. Taking a 50-year old manufacturing worker who&#8217;s been making $40/hour and telling him that at best he can make $12.50/hour now. I bet you&#8217;re a professional that makes 6-figures. How would you feel to have such a downgrade in life?</p>
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		<title>By: John Dewey</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/in-the-spirit-of-bastiat.html/comment-page-1#comment-183455</link>
		<dc:creator>John Dewey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2009 15:29:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6630#comment-183455</guid>
		<description>No, you and I definitely do not know that.  you may believe that is true, but I know better.

IMO, every single one of the laid off factory workers can be retrained and employed as skilled labor.  Whether that skilled labor position pays $50K or $25K depends on supply and demand.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, you and I definitely do not know that.  you may believe that is true, but I know better.</p>
<p>IMO, every single one of the laid off factory workers can be retrained and employed as skilled labor.  Whether that skilled labor position pays $50K or $25K depends on supply and demand.</p>
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		<title>By: John Dewey</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/in-the-spirit-of-bastiat.html/comment-page-1#comment-183452</link>
		<dc:creator>John Dewey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2009 15:27:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6630#comment-183452</guid>
		<description>You really need to research U.S. manufacturing statistics, Arrowsmith.  You would find that, prior to this temporary recession, U.S. manufacturing output was at an all time high in 2005, then again in 2006, and then again in 2007.  In other words, Arrowsmith, U.S. manufacturing is very much alive and well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You really need to research U.S. manufacturing statistics, Arrowsmith.  You would find that, prior to this temporary recession, U.S. manufacturing output was at an all time high in 2005, then again in 2006, and then again in 2007.  In other words, Arrowsmith, U.S. manufacturing is very much alive and well.</p>
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		<title>By: John Dewey</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/in-the-spirit-of-bastiat.html/comment-page-1#comment-183439</link>
		<dc:creator>John Dewey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2009 14:20:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6630#comment-183439</guid>
		<description>MWG, I agree.  It is sad to see the word &quot;slave&quot; be used so casually.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MWG, I agree.  It is sad to see the word &#8220;slave&#8221; be used so casually.</p>
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		<title>By: John Dewey</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/in-the-spirit-of-bastiat.html/comment-page-1#comment-183438</link>
		<dc:creator>John Dewey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2009 14:17:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6630#comment-183438</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;&quot;Like that&#039;s ever going to happen&quot;&lt;/em&gt;

You must be very young.  Anyone who&#039;s been around a while - or who bothers to read history books - has seen economic miracles.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>&#8220;Like that&#8217;s ever going to happen&#8221;</em></p>
<p>You must be very young.  Anyone who&#8217;s been around a while &#8211; or who bothers to read history books &#8211; has seen economic miracles.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/in-the-spirit-of-bastiat.html/comment-page-1#comment-183437</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2009 14:16:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6630#comment-183437</guid>
		<description>Agreed, never put all eggs in one basket. However, the rate at which imports are killing native industries is staggering. We won&#039;t have any manufacturing left at this rate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agreed, never put all eggs in one basket. However, the rate at which imports are killing native industries is staggering. We won&#8217;t have any manufacturing left at this rate.</p>
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		<title>By: John Dewey</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/in-the-spirit-of-bastiat.html/comment-page-1#comment-183435</link>
		<dc:creator>John Dewey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2009 14:13:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6630#comment-183435</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;thordeer: &quot;What if your entire investment portfolio--human capital, pension, housing--is wiped out by imports in your industry?&quot;&lt;/em&gt;

My first thoughts were:

Why would anyone allow themselves to be so dependent on the success of a single industry?  If one did become so dependent on one industry for investment and for wages, why would that person be so foolish as to not put aside something in case of disaster?

Americans have been adapting to changes in fortunes of industries and places of employment for at least 150 years.  Whether it be automation or changing fashions or imports or natural catastrophe, Americans have proven they are resilient.

Why should today be any different, thordeer?

Of course, the prudent man will never see his entire human portfolio wiped out by imports in his industry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>thordeer: &#8220;What if your entire investment portfolio&#8211;human capital, pension, housing&#8211;is wiped out by imports in your industry?&#8221;</em></p>
<p>My first thoughts were:</p>
<p>Why would anyone allow themselves to be so dependent on the success of a single industry?  If one did become so dependent on one industry for investment and for wages, why would that person be so foolish as to not put aside something in case of disaster?</p>
<p>Americans have been adapting to changes in fortunes of industries and places of employment for at least 150 years.  Whether it be automation or changing fashions or imports or natural catastrophe, Americans have proven they are resilient.</p>
<p>Why should today be any different, thordeer?</p>
<p>Of course, the prudent man will never see his entire human portfolio wiped out by imports in his industry.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/in-the-spirit-of-bastiat.html/comment-page-1#comment-183434</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2009 14:12:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6630#comment-183434</guid>
		<description>Manufacturing output is strong, but manufacturing jobs are disappearing forever. The result of outsourcing and automation.

Also what % of 50-year old laid off factory workers do you think can realistically can be retrained for a professional job that pays more then $50K+/year? Come on, you know and i know they are headed straight for Wal Mart or permanently on the dole.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Manufacturing output is strong, but manufacturing jobs are disappearing forever. The result of outsourcing and automation.</p>
<p>Also what % of 50-year old laid off factory workers do you think can realistically can be retrained for a professional job that pays more then $50K+/year? Come on, you know and i know they are headed straight for Wal Mart or permanently on the dole.</p>
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