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	<title>Comments on: &#8220;Social Justice&#8221; and &#8220;Income Distribution&#8221;</title>
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	<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/social-justice-and-income-distribution.html</link>
	<description>where orders emerge</description>
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		<title>By: mesaeconoguy</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/social-justice-and-income-distribution.html/comment-page-1#comment-180168</link>
		<dc:creator>mesaeconoguy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Sep 2009 08:11:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6167#comment-180168</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I read this passage over and over. I think I get his point&lt;/i&gt; ...


No, you don&#039;t. 

Allow me to clarify: James Galbraith is a moron, like you.

Markets don’t care, idiot.  That’s the point. You’re not that important.  Get over it.

Life isn’t ”fair.”  This isn’t equal outcome, amateur economist Galbraiths (both of them).
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I read this passage over and over. I think I get his point</i> &#8230;</p>
<p>No, you don&#8217;t. </p>
<p>Allow me to clarify: James Galbraith is a moron, like you.</p>
<p>Markets don’t care, idiot.  That’s the point. You’re not that important.  Get over it.</p>
<p>Life isn’t ”fair.”  This isn’t equal outcome, amateur economist Galbraiths (both of them).</p>
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		<title>By: mesaeconoguy</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/social-justice-and-income-distribution.html/comment-page-1#comment-180167</link>
		<dc:creator>mesaeconoguy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Sep 2009 08:03:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6167#comment-180167</guid>
		<description>Because they’re not the same thing, fool.

The difference is choice.  That’s what you’re supposedly for, right?  

Then how come you’re the biggest obstacle to it?  And who the hell are you to decide?  You have a well established record of mental incompetence and general ignorance, so you’re obviously not the right guy.

If you honestly believe what you spew on this blog and had any integrity whatsoever, you would immediately relinquish everything you have ever gained via your misidentified “talent” (you’re a living counterexample for signaling theory, more later), and you would apologize to everyone here for your ignorance.

You need to rethink your entire wasted life, sniveling jackass.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Because they’re not the same thing, fool.</p>
<p>The difference is choice.  That’s what you’re supposedly for, right?  </p>
<p>Then how come you’re the biggest obstacle to it?  And who the hell are you to decide?  You have a well established record of mental incompetence and general ignorance, so you’re obviously not the right guy.</p>
<p>If you honestly believe what you spew on this blog and had any integrity whatsoever, you would immediately relinquish everything you have ever gained via your misidentified “talent” (you’re a living counterexample for signaling theory, more later), and you would apologize to everyone here for your ignorance.</p>
<p>You need to rethink your entire wasted life, sniveling jackass.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/social-justice-and-income-distribution.html/comment-page-1#comment-180003</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 21:23:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6167#comment-180003</guid>
		<description>Not the underside of his mattress. He made those investments because he expected their return was greater than the return from his next best option. The difference is significant, because it leads to market efficiency.If two assets with comparable risk have different expected yields over some period, then we must expect investors requiring a yield over this period to sell the asset with the lower yield and buy the asset with the higher yield, thus driving the price of the former down and the price of the latter up, until the difference in expected yield no longer exists.Rational expectations depend upon information, and information need not be widely known, but if you only have widely known information, you can&#039;t rationally expect one asset to yield more than another with comparable risk, because this difference between two assets is unstable. An efficient capital market bids it away.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not the underside of his mattress. He made those investments because he expected their return was greater than the return from his next best option. The difference is significant, because it leads to market efficiency.If two assets with comparable risk have different expected yields over some period, then we must expect investors requiring a yield over this period to sell the asset with the lower yield and buy the asset with the higher yield, thus driving the price of the former down and the price of the latter up, until the difference in expected yield no longer exists.Rational expectations depend upon information, and information need not be widely known, but if you only have widely known information, you can&#8217;t rationally expect one asset to yield more than another with comparable risk, because this difference between two assets is unstable. An efficient capital market bids it away.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/social-justice-and-income-distribution.html/comment-page-1#comment-179951</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 18:51:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6167#comment-179951</guid>
		<description>He wouldn&#039;t.  The point was regarding marginal value.  You can say he has $40 billion in assets, but that does not mean he can cash out and buy $40 billion in some other assets.  There is another restriction to that value label--to get that value assumes he would sell only small portions over a long period of time.  A realistic valuation would have to depreciate for that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>He wouldn&#8217;t.  The point was regarding marginal value.  You can say he has $40 billion in assets, but that does not mean he can cash out and buy $40 billion in some other assets.  There is another restriction to that value label&#8211;to get that value assumes he would sell only small portions over a long period of time.  A realistic valuation would have to depreciate for that.</p>
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		<title>By: bb_gun</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/social-justice-and-income-distribution.html/comment-page-1#comment-179949</link>
		<dc:creator>bb_gun</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 18:44:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6167#comment-179949</guid>
		<description>except under extraordinary conditions, why would bill rapidly liquidate all of his assets? he made those investments because he expected their return was greater than the return from the underside of his mattress. opportunity is everywhere, so there must be a profitable marketplace somewhere. it is difficult to think of a reason for a complete retreat.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>except under extraordinary conditions, why would bill rapidly liquidate all of his assets? he made those investments because he expected their return was greater than the return from the underside of his mattress. opportunity is everywhere, so there must be a profitable marketplace somewhere. it is difficult to think of a reason for a complete retreat.</p>
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		<title>By: bb_gun</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/social-justice-and-income-distribution.html/comment-page-1#comment-179948</link>
		<dc:creator>bb_gun</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 18:33:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6167#comment-179948</guid>
		<description>i generalized for effect, but your specificity is more informative. thank you. btw, your post below is extraordinarily eloquent.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i generalized for effect, but your specificity is more informative. thank you. btw, your post below is extraordinarily eloquent.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/social-justice-and-income-distribution.html/comment-page-1#comment-179870</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 06:03:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6167#comment-179870</guid>
		<description>&quot;even in sports they institute leveling strategies like granting poor performers better drafting positions; separating schools into classifications and revenue sharing&quot;

Participation in sports is voluntary.  Care to make participation in government voluntary?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;even in sports they institute leveling strategies like granting poor performers better drafting positions; separating schools into classifications and revenue sharing&#8221;</p>
<p>Participation in sports is voluntary.  Care to make participation in government voluntary?</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/social-justice-and-income-distribution.html/comment-page-1#comment-179868</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 05:51:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6167#comment-179868</guid>
		<description>&quot;many libertarians seem to favor their current situation, derived after centuries of governmnet intervention, plunder, systematic laws excluding women, poor people, immigrants&quot;

And your argument is that some people are probably currently benefiting in some intangible way off of the crimes of others in the past, so let&#039;s just indiscriminately punish everyone for it now.  Apparently the obvious tangible injustices that you must commit in the process do not bother you.  

It is called collective justice.  Collective justice is, as a matter of fact, not justice at all.  It is one of humanities greatest evils.  And you, like those in the past who have also advocated for it, really use it simply as a convenient justification for the evil they wish to do to others.  In your case, I suspect you wish to persuade your government to confiscate others&#039; property, and feed your values with the loot--or simply force them to live in some manner consistent with your values.

How about a test of your sincerity.  Would you allow someone who starts out with zero net assets--or puts up some amount of wealth that you deem his ill-gotten gains--to choose to be free from all of your coercive schemes?  Would you allow that person to pursue a libertarian life--to live by the &quot;rules&quot; of liberty?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;many libertarians seem to favor their current situation, derived after centuries of governmnet intervention, plunder, systematic laws excluding women, poor people, immigrants&#8221;</p>
<p>And your argument is that some people are probably currently benefiting in some intangible way off of the crimes of others in the past, so let&#8217;s just indiscriminately punish everyone for it now.  Apparently the obvious tangible injustices that you must commit in the process do not bother you.  </p>
<p>It is called collective justice.  Collective justice is, as a matter of fact, not justice at all.  It is one of humanities greatest evils.  And you, like those in the past who have also advocated for it, really use it simply as a convenient justification for the evil they wish to do to others.  In your case, I suspect you wish to persuade your government to confiscate others&#8217; property, and feed your values with the loot&#8211;or simply force them to live in some manner consistent with your values.</p>
<p>How about a test of your sincerity.  Would you allow someone who starts out with zero net assets&#8211;or puts up some amount of wealth that you deem his ill-gotten gains&#8211;to choose to be free from all of your coercive schemes?  Would you allow that person to pursue a libertarian life&#8211;to live by the &#8220;rules&#8221; of liberty?</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/social-justice-and-income-distribution.html/comment-page-1#comment-179866</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 05:21:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6167#comment-179866</guid>
		<description>The game example is an excellent way of explaining fairness. In baseball there is a cadre of non-players called umpires, who, with no interest in the outcome, act as arbiters for  the actions of players. In the rest of life, there is a cadre of non-humans called government employees, who, with no interest in the outcome, act as arbiters for the actions of humans.

This, of course, is nonsensical on so many levels. I have encountered government employees that should consider the term “non-human” an upgrade. But even the best are incapable of stepping outside of humanity and performing a role in the same manner that we can stipulate into existence in sports.

Even with our stipulations, umpires and referees can cheat to achieve some real-life benefits. While there probably is broad agreement over most of what constitutes “unfairness”, what’s left over is hardly insignificant. And there is more than just the question of just conduct - what about unjust conditions? 

The reality is this: even in sports they institute leveling strategies like granting poor performers better drafting positions; separating schools into classifications and revenue sharing. 


</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The game example is an excellent way of explaining fairness. In baseball there is a cadre of non-players called umpires, who, with no interest in the outcome, act as arbiters for  the actions of players. In the rest of life, there is a cadre of non-humans called government employees, who, with no interest in the outcome, act as arbiters for the actions of humans.</p>
<p>This, of course, is nonsensical on so many levels. I have encountered government employees that should consider the term “non-human” an upgrade. But even the best are incapable of stepping outside of humanity and performing a role in the same manner that we can stipulate into existence in sports.</p>
<p>Even with our stipulations, umpires and referees can cheat to achieve some real-life benefits. While there probably is broad agreement over most of what constitutes “unfairness”, what’s left over is hardly insignificant. And there is more than just the question of just conduct &#8211; what about unjust conditions? </p>
<p>The reality is this: even in sports they institute leveling strategies like granting poor performers better drafting positions; separating schools into classifications and revenue sharing.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/social-justice-and-income-distribution.html/comment-page-1#comment-179865</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 05:20:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6167#comment-179865</guid>
		<description>The game example is an excellent way of explaining fairness. In baseball there is a cadre of non-players called umpires, who, with no interest in the outcome, act as arbiters for  the actions of players. In the rest of life, there is a cadre of non-humans called government employees, who, with no interest in the outcome, act as arbiters for the actions of humans.

This, of course, is nonsensical on so many levels. I have encountered government employees that should consider the term “non-human” an upgrade. But even the best are incapable of stepping outside of humanity and performing a role in the same manner that we can stipulate into existence in sports.

Even with our stipulations, umpires and referees can cheat to achieve some real-life benefits. While there probably is broad agreement over most of what constitutes “unfairness”, what’s left over is hardly insignificant. And there is more than just the question of just conduct - what about unjust conditions? 

The reality is this: even in sports they institute leveling strategies like granting poor performers better drafting positions; separating schools into classifications and revenue sharing. 


</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The game example is an excellent way of explaining fairness. In baseball there is a cadre of non-players called umpires, who, with no interest in the outcome, act as arbiters for  the actions of players. In the rest of life, there is a cadre of non-humans called government employees, who, with no interest in the outcome, act as arbiters for the actions of humans.</p>
<p>This, of course, is nonsensical on so many levels. I have encountered government employees that should consider the term “non-human” an upgrade. But even the best are incapable of stepping outside of humanity and performing a role in the same manner that we can stipulate into existence in sports.</p>
<p>Even with our stipulations, umpires and referees can cheat to achieve some real-life benefits. While there probably is broad agreement over most of what constitutes “unfairness”, what’s left over is hardly insignificant. And there is more than just the question of just conduct &#8211; what about unjust conditions? </p>
<p>The reality is this: even in sports they institute leveling strategies like granting poor performers better drafting positions; separating schools into classifications and revenue sharing.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/social-justice-and-income-distribution.html/comment-page-1#comment-179864</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 05:08:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6167#comment-179864</guid>
		<description>And marginal value at that.  Just wait and see what happens to the value if he tries to rapidly liquidate it all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And marginal value at that.  Just wait and see what happens to the value if he tries to rapidly liquidate it all.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/social-justice-and-income-distribution.html/comment-page-1#comment-179854</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 03:05:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6167#comment-179854</guid>
		<description>who inherits wealth is not a concern for us based on who receives it. the matter of concern is what the person who created it wishes to do with it. if I wish to give my son my money, (which I won&#039;t be doing,) then since it is mine to dispose of, you have no right to go to him and say that it isn&#039;t &#039;fair&#039; that he received it.  it doesn&#039;t concern you, it concerns me and how I dispose of my own assets. me. not you. not society. especially not the government. Also, it&#039;s interesting that I&#039;ve already been taxed in making the money, it will again be taxed in just giving it away.  some  racket they have there.  a person gaining inherited wealth is not taking it away from anyone else. they aren&#039;t stealing bread from the mouths of the poor by not pouring out their guilt in gilts.  In fact, hopefully, they don&#039;t even apologize for being wealthy. What business is it of anyone&#039;s how much money a person has?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>who inherits wealth is not a concern for us based on who receives it. the matter of concern is what the person who created it wishes to do with it. if I wish to give my son my money, (which I won&#8217;t be doing,) then since it is mine to dispose of, you have no right to go to him and say that it isn&#8217;t &#8216;fair&#8217; that he received it.  it doesn&#8217;t concern you, it concerns me and how I dispose of my own assets. me. not you. not society. especially not the government. Also, it&#8217;s interesting that I&#8217;ve already been taxed in making the money, it will again be taxed in just giving it away.  some  racket they have there.  a person gaining inherited wealth is not taking it away from anyone else. they aren&#8217;t stealing bread from the mouths of the poor by not pouring out their guilt in gilts.  In fact, hopefully, they don&#8217;t even apologize for being wealthy. What business is it of anyone&#8217;s how much money a person has?</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/social-justice-and-income-distribution.html/comment-page-1#comment-179853</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 02:51:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6167#comment-179853</guid>
		<description>this is bill gates, the loser, the quitter, the social defaulter. he has given in to this imaginary sense that somehow it is only good for a man to benefit others, but bad to benefit himself.  If it&#039;s only good to benefit others, who are the beneficiaries to collect such benefits? Moral invalids?  A man can only live inside one brain.  He can only sustain that which he knows to be good, and he can only know things to be good in relation to his perception of them.  

What do these moral elite who demand that folks like gates give away fortunes to prove their virtue have to say in defense of the fact that they treat their own families better than they do the family down the street?  How about how they put food on their own table before the neighbors?  Why do they insist upon mowing their own lawns before they&#039;ve first mowed those of the entire block?  What a bunch of self centered people in a self centered world!  

If one is truly concerned with their own best interest, that means they will look out for the things that they value, personally.  Their own happiness, that of their family, the company of those they love, and they do not take a single thing from anyone else, if they know what is good for them.  How many business do you know that think &quot;I&#039;ve got this great business model! I&#039;ll make a crappy product, sell it for a high price, and I&#039;ll be rich!&quot;  None. If they do that, they won&#039;t make it for very long. Some try this model, and fail. Some temporarily undercut, but that is rare. The truth is, someone who is truly and rationally self interested will not want to damage his own reputation by  doing ill to others.  Goodwill is more valuable than a few quick kill scams of thefts.  returning customers buy more, and tell others to buy more.  Those who have been cheated simply call the cops or lawyers.  No rational, self-interested individual loving his own happiness would ever seek to bring upon himself the wrath of those he has wronged, nor the torment of public crucifixion that would surely follow.  

YES, there are bad businessmen, but they are not RATIONALLY self interested. They are worshipers of their own whims.  Rational men do what is best for them, which is very hard  to do sometimes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>this is bill gates, the loser, the quitter, the social defaulter. he has given in to this imaginary sense that somehow it is only good for a man to benefit others, but bad to benefit himself.  If it&#8217;s only good to benefit others, who are the beneficiaries to collect such benefits? Moral invalids?  A man can only live inside one brain.  He can only sustain that which he knows to be good, and he can only know things to be good in relation to his perception of them.  </p>
<p>What do these moral elite who demand that folks like gates give away fortunes to prove their virtue have to say in defense of the fact that they treat their own families better than they do the family down the street?  How about how they put food on their own table before the neighbors?  Why do they insist upon mowing their own lawns before they&#8217;ve first mowed those of the entire block?  What a bunch of self centered people in a self centered world!  </p>
<p>If one is truly concerned with their own best interest, that means they will look out for the things that they value, personally.  Their own happiness, that of their family, the company of those they love, and they do not take a single thing from anyone else, if they know what is good for them.  How many business do you know that think &#8220;I&#8217;ve got this great business model! I&#8217;ll make a crappy product, sell it for a high price, and I&#8217;ll be rich!&#8221;  None. If they do that, they won&#8217;t make it for very long. Some try this model, and fail. Some temporarily undercut, but that is rare. The truth is, someone who is truly and rationally self interested will not want to damage his own reputation by  doing ill to others.  Goodwill is more valuable than a few quick kill scams of thefts.  returning customers buy more, and tell others to buy more.  Those who have been cheated simply call the cops or lawyers.  No rational, self-interested individual loving his own happiness would ever seek to bring upon himself the wrath of those he has wronged, nor the torment of public crucifixion that would surely follow.  </p>
<p>YES, there are bad businessmen, but they are not RATIONALLY self interested. They are worshipers of their own whims.  Rational men do what is best for them, which is very hard  to do sometimes.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/social-justice-and-income-distribution.html/comment-page-1#comment-179852</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 02:42:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6167#comment-179852</guid>
		<description>au contraire. him getting to collect taht 40 billion dollars was the engine that caused him to continue producing anything at all, and those 100,000 employees should thank him for being so focused on making money that he kept putting energy into growing an institution that is now able to pay them a living wage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>au contraire. him getting to collect taht 40 billion dollars was the engine that caused him to continue producing anything at all, and those 100,000 employees should thank him for being so focused on making money that he kept putting energy into growing an institution that is now able to pay them a living wage.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/social-justice-and-income-distribution.html/comment-page-1#comment-179851</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 02:40:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6167#comment-179851</guid>
		<description>for one, printing money is wealth redistribution. It is certainly not a creation of any kind of value.  You may think that&#039;s a nice n sympathetic thing to do, but it&#039;s exactly the equivalent of a REGRESSIVE tax.  People&#039;s savings are made to be less valuable as more money is &#039;deficit spent.&#039;  Those with less money to begin with are devalued the most, percentage-wise.  Why is it not considered wealth creation when stock holders are diluted to hell when the government buys a gigantic stake in the company via a new issue?  Oh, right, but it&#039;s different with M1 and M2. Keyenes said so. We oughtta build pyramids, or dig big holes, bury dollars in treasure chests and tell men to dig them up!

  You can talk all you want about how the money will be destroyed at some point, but if it really were a zero sum game, there would be no &#039;stimulus effect&#039; to speak of.  

It&#039;s very much like saying Check Kiting works to grow the economy, as long as nobody cashes any of the checks.  (For example, I recall someone citing that the monetization of the GSE debt by the Fed, bought on the open market from other financial institutions is really not affecting anything economically because its proceeds are still sitting in bank reserves and not getting out into the economy via lending.  ie, nobody&#039;s caching the check.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>for one, printing money is wealth redistribution. It is certainly not a creation of any kind of value.  You may think that&#8217;s a nice n sympathetic thing to do, but it&#8217;s exactly the equivalent of a REGRESSIVE tax.  People&#8217;s savings are made to be less valuable as more money is &#8216;deficit spent.&#8217;  Those with less money to begin with are devalued the most, percentage-wise.  Why is it not considered wealth creation when stock holders are diluted to hell when the government buys a gigantic stake in the company via a new issue?  Oh, right, but it&#8217;s different with M1 and M2. Keyenes said so. We oughtta build pyramids, or dig big holes, bury dollars in treasure chests and tell men to dig them up!</p>
<p>  You can talk all you want about how the money will be destroyed at some point, but if it really were a zero sum game, there would be no &#8216;stimulus effect&#8217; to speak of.  </p>
<p>It&#8217;s very much like saying Check Kiting works to grow the economy, as long as nobody cashes any of the checks.  (For example, I recall someone citing that the monetization of the GSE debt by the Fed, bought on the open market from other financial institutions is really not affecting anything economically because its proceeds are still sitting in bank reserves and not getting out into the economy via lending.  ie, nobody&#8217;s caching the check.)</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/social-justice-and-income-distribution.html/comment-page-1#comment-179827</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 22:05:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6167#comment-179827</guid>
		<description>Sure we can have a pointed discussion about Keynesianism.  Let&#039;s start here:  Tell me one idea that distinguishes Keynesianism that isn&#039;t nonsense.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sure we can have a pointed discussion about Keynesianism.  Let&#8217;s start here:  Tell me one idea that distinguishes Keynesianism that isn&#8217;t nonsense.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/social-justice-and-income-distribution.html/comment-page-1#comment-179826</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 22:04:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6167#comment-179826</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt; The rules are the same for all of us, the system would likely promote greater efficiency as the ability to move up the economic ladder would be greater&lt;/i&gt;

By what mechanism does stealing the wealth of people who &quot;have too much&quot; increase the ability of those who don&#039;t to &quot;move up&quot;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i> The rules are the same for all of us, the system would likely promote greater efficiency as the ability to move up the economic ladder would be greater</i></p>
<p>By what mechanism does stealing the wealth of people who &#8220;have too much&#8221; increase the ability of those who don&#8217;t to &#8220;move up&#8221;?</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/social-justice-and-income-distribution.html/comment-page-1#comment-179801</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 19:13:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6167#comment-179801</guid>
		<description>I hope you&#039;re being facetious about that last Keynesian remark... otherwise it&#039;s no wonder any discussion of Keynesianism with you seems pointless.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hope you&#8217;re being facetious about that last Keynesian remark&#8230; otherwise it&#8217;s no wonder any discussion of Keynesianism with you seems pointless.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/social-justice-and-income-distribution.html/comment-page-1#comment-179800</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 19:11:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6167#comment-179800</guid>
		<description>The Forbes 400 list is about net wealth, not income. That makes your point even more specious.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Forbes 400 list is about net wealth, not income. That makes your point even more specious.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/social-justice-and-income-distribution.html/comment-page-1#comment-179788</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 17:30:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6167#comment-179788</guid>
		<description>I think the post is based upon a false premise.  

I would agree with it one hundred percent if it advocated 100% estate taxes and gift taxes, required attendance by all children at uniform schools, etc.  Then you would have perfectly &quot;fair&quot; teams and everyone could compete and nobody could impugn the resulting score, however lopsided it might be.  That is probably the strongest and most logical caveat that would allow for compeling libertarian thought:  &quot;let&#039;s create a very equal playing field, and then it is up to everyone to do what he or she wants and nobody has to feel bad about it or anything.&quot;

As it is now, many libertarians seem to favor their current situation, derived after centuries of governmnet intervention, plunder, systematic laws excluding women, poor people, immigrants, etc. for the longest time, and the argument seems to be, &quot;Ok, no matter what the rules were and what happened in the first half of the game, everything is relatively fair right now, at least as far as I am concerned, so lets keep playing, just no changing the rules starting now, and oh yeah, no government at all except for people with guns to enforce my property rights!&quot;

Why not admit that far more reasonable approach is to admit you are an independent, a socially liberal republican, or a fiscally conservative democrat, acknowledge government must play some role in creating institutions that allow for a market place to even exist, and realize that liberty, human nature, and human decency requires some amount of government action, if only to promote and maintain such a human-invented concept at &quot;property rights&quot; and to prevent anarchy and mob-rule, and then devote oneself to serious policy arguments over the appropriate level of government involvement?
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the post is based upon a false premise.  </p>
<p>I would agree with it one hundred percent if it advocated 100% estate taxes and gift taxes, required attendance by all children at uniform schools, etc.  Then you would have perfectly &#8220;fair&#8221; teams and everyone could compete and nobody could impugn the resulting score, however lopsided it might be.  That is probably the strongest and most logical caveat that would allow for compeling libertarian thought:  &#8220;let&#8217;s create a very equal playing field, and then it is up to everyone to do what he or she wants and nobody has to feel bad about it or anything.&#8221;</p>
<p>As it is now, many libertarians seem to favor their current situation, derived after centuries of governmnet intervention, plunder, systematic laws excluding women, poor people, immigrants, etc. for the longest time, and the argument seems to be, &#8220;Ok, no matter what the rules were and what happened in the first half of the game, everything is relatively fair right now, at least as far as I am concerned, so lets keep playing, just no changing the rules starting now, and oh yeah, no government at all except for people with guns to enforce my property rights!&#8221;</p>
<p>Why not admit that far more reasonable approach is to admit you are an independent, a socially liberal republican, or a fiscally conservative democrat, acknowledge government must play some role in creating institutions that allow for a market place to even exist, and realize that liberty, human nature, and human decency requires some amount of government action, if only to promote and maintain such a human-invented concept at &#8220;property rights&#8221; and to prevent anarchy and mob-rule, and then devote oneself to serious policy arguments over the appropriate level of government involvement?</p>
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