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	<title>Comments on: The Downside of Minimum-Wage Legislation</title>
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	<description>where orders emerge</description>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/the-downside-of-minimum-wage-legislation.html/comment-page-1#comment-181459</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Sep 2009 13:12:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6274#comment-181459</guid>
		<description>How do you know it is what the market will bear? I don&#039;t think you can make any judgements on the article unless you take the profit margin of the companies that are denying these wages to the employees. 

The workers are human, per the article mainly women with childen, poor, mobility is sometimes limited for low wage employees(jobs they can get to, time they have to look for new employment, ability to relocate to a different city) , so yes, they work for what they can get but not becuase they really want to or are happy with the wage; they have to. They do not have all of these fantasy options that you all dream up. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How do you know it is what the market will bear? I don&#8217;t think you can make any judgements on the article unless you take the profit margin of the companies that are denying these wages to the employees. </p>
<p>The workers are human, per the article mainly women with childen, poor, mobility is sometimes limited for low wage employees(jobs they can get to, time they have to look for new employment, ability to relocate to a different city) , so yes, they work for what they can get but not becuase they really want to or are happy with the wage; they have to. They do not have all of these fantasy options that you all dream up.</p>
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		<title>By: Jobs For Teens</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/the-downside-of-minimum-wage-legislation.html/comment-page-1#comment-180685</link>
		<dc:creator>Jobs For Teens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Sep 2009 16:43:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6274#comment-180685</guid>
		<description>You are all saying the same thing.  I have a job listing site for teens (quite a popular one) and none of them can land a job these days except with me as all my work is legitimate online work.  The companies that I put them into hire them on the same day anywhere in the world.  So there are options out there.  Online work is the ultimate teen job, It&#039;s just a matter of weeding out the good places from the bad placed to work for.  Great article.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are all saying the same thing.  I have a job listing site for teens (quite a popular one) and none of them can land a job these days except with me as all my work is legitimate online work.  The companies that I put them into hire them on the same day anywhere in the world.  So there are options out there.  Online work is the ultimate teen job, It&#8217;s just a matter of weeding out the good places from the bad placed to work for.  Great article.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/the-downside-of-minimum-wage-legislation.html/comment-page-1#comment-180551</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Sep 2009 18:33:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6274#comment-180551</guid>
		<description>&quot;you can&#039;t design and run an experiment that explicitly tests your hypothesis&quot;

That is definitely a severe limitation of empirical economic analysis, and one that those using economic studies do not seem to fully appreciate when it comes to the confidence in which they assert their conclusions.

The solution to that problem is not to toss up your hands at the futility of economic knowledge.  It is to place greater emphasis on an objective rational framework in which to interpret observed data.  The depth and complexity of that framework must be greater than what is frequently necessary in the hard sciences.  That, and an irrational skepticism against objective reason (and perhaps an element of intellectual laziness, or ideological defense), leaves many economists clinging to the impossible notion of an empirical economic science.

With minimum wage, we have a good example of this.  You have the latter type of economist actually thinking that the C-K data proved (and could possibly prove) the objective necessary rational foundation of economics to be incorrect.

A good economist (e.g. one from the school of Mises) would rightly treat any empirical claim requiring that logical contradictions are real, or that human nature is not what it is, with extreme skepticism.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;you can&#8217;t design and run an experiment that explicitly tests your hypothesis&#8221;</p>
<p>That is definitely a severe limitation of empirical economic analysis, and one that those using economic studies do not seem to fully appreciate when it comes to the confidence in which they assert their conclusions.</p>
<p>The solution to that problem is not to toss up your hands at the futility of economic knowledge.  It is to place greater emphasis on an objective rational framework in which to interpret observed data.  The depth and complexity of that framework must be greater than what is frequently necessary in the hard sciences.  That, and an irrational skepticism against objective reason (and perhaps an element of intellectual laziness, or ideological defense), leaves many economists clinging to the impossible notion of an empirical economic science.</p>
<p>With minimum wage, we have a good example of this.  You have the latter type of economist actually thinking that the C-K data proved (and could possibly prove) the objective necessary rational foundation of economics to be incorrect.</p>
<p>A good economist (e.g. one from the school of Mises) would rightly treat any empirical claim requiring that logical contradictions are real, or that human nature is not what it is, with extreme skepticism.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/the-downside-of-minimum-wage-legislation.html/comment-page-1#comment-180511</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Sep 2009 12:45:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6274#comment-180511</guid>
		<description>Actually Justin, the term &quot;Dismal Science&quot; comes from Thomas Carlyle in response to economic theories related to Malthusian growth stagnation and ending slavery. In both cases according to Carlyle, the economics led to grim predictions. What you&#039;ve stated does not follow.

You&#039;re correct we can&#039;t test things in lab conditions, but natural experiments happen all the time. You just have to know where to look. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually Justin, the term &#8220;Dismal Science&#8221; comes from Thomas Carlyle in response to economic theories related to Malthusian growth stagnation and ending slavery. In both cases according to Carlyle, the economics led to grim predictions. What you&#8217;ve stated does not follow.</p>
<p>You&#8217;re correct we can&#8217;t test things in lab conditions, but natural experiments happen all the time. You just have to know where to look.</p>
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		<title>By: Justin P</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/the-downside-of-minimum-wage-legislation.html/comment-page-1#comment-180510</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin P</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Sep 2009 12:12:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6274#comment-180510</guid>
		<description>The problem, especially in Econ, is that you can&#039;t design and run an experiment that explicitly tests your hypothesis. Hence the moniker &quot;Dismal Science.&quot; 
It would be nice if we could, hold everything constant and test. 

The way we have it now, is that you can test and prove almost anything you want, which is why we have Keynes. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem, especially in Econ, is that you can&#8217;t design and run an experiment that explicitly tests your hypothesis. Hence the moniker &#8220;Dismal Science.&#8221;<br />
It would be nice if we could, hold everything constant and test. </p>
<p>The way we have it now, is that you can test and prove almost anything you want, which is why we have Keynes.</p>
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		<title>By: Sam Grove</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/the-downside-of-minimum-wage-legislation.html/comment-page-1#comment-180503</link>
		<dc:creator>Sam Grove</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Sep 2009 04:36:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6274#comment-180503</guid>
		<description>I meant you have to flip it to get the way I put it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I meant you have to flip it to get the way I put it.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/the-downside-of-minimum-wage-legislation.html/comment-page-1#comment-180471</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Sep 2009 20:21:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6274#comment-180471</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not sure you have to flip perspective, but you certainly can, and still present equivalent concepts.

When you increase costs on supply (e.g., supply being those companies which hire people and manufacture products) it does increase supplied price per unit quantity (i.e. shifts the supply curve left).  But the prices and quantities for the S/D curves in that analysis are for the manufactured product being sold, not the labor.  

When analyzing the price and quantity of labor (wages), labor is supplied by workers, demanded by employers.  E.g., employers will want more labor when the price decreases (that is a demand curve).  Workers will want to provide more labor when the price increases (a supply curve).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure you have to flip perspective, but you certainly can, and still present equivalent concepts.</p>
<p>When you increase costs on supply (e.g., supply being those companies which hire people and manufacture products) it does increase supplied price per unit quantity (i.e. shifts the supply curve left).  But the prices and quantities for the S/D curves in that analysis are for the manufactured product being sold, not the labor.  </p>
<p>When analyzing the price and quantity of labor (wages), labor is supplied by workers, demanded by employers.  E.g., employers will want more labor when the price decreases (that is a demand curve).  Workers will want to provide more labor when the price increases (a supply curve).</p>
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		<title>By: Sam Grove</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/the-downside-of-minimum-wage-legislation.html/comment-page-1#comment-180466</link>
		<dc:creator>Sam Grove</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Sep 2009 19:28:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6274#comment-180466</guid>
		<description>Careful who you click to reply to.

Europeans also, unwittingly, accept a lower standard of living as a result.
Perhaps that is why they resent Americans.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Careful who you click to reply to.</p>
<p>Europeans also, unwittingly, accept a lower standard of living as a result.<br />
Perhaps that is why they resent Americans.</p>
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		<title>By: Sam Grove</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/the-downside-of-minimum-wage-legislation.html/comment-page-1#comment-180464</link>
		<dc:creator>Sam Grove</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Sep 2009 18:50:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6274#comment-180464</guid>
		<description>You do have to flip perspective.
Employers have a demand for employees.
Workers have a demand for jobs (income).
Employers supply jobs.
Workers supply labor.

Minimum wage reduces the supply of below min. wage jobs.
Ignoring such laws will increase the supply of such jobs.

One problem with the discussion over jobs is the inability of many to perceive jobs as a cost. I tried to explain to a friend that the purpose of economic activity is to create goods and services, not to create jobs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You do have to flip perspective.<br />
Employers have a demand for employees.<br />
Workers have a demand for jobs (income).<br />
Employers supply jobs.<br />
Workers supply labor.</p>
<p>Minimum wage reduces the supply of below min. wage jobs.<br />
Ignoring such laws will increase the supply of such jobs.</p>
<p>One problem with the discussion over jobs is the inability of many to perceive jobs as a cost. I tried to explain to a friend that the purpose of economic activity is to create goods and services, not to create jobs.</p>
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		<title>By: John Dewey</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/the-downside-of-minimum-wage-legislation.html/comment-page-1#comment-180463</link>
		<dc:creator>John Dewey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Sep 2009 18:36:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6274#comment-180463</guid>
		<description>Large companies already face health insurance mandates which small companies can avoid.  So what happened to large company low wage jobs as health insurance costs went through the roof?  Those jobs were outsourced to small companies that didn&#039;t have the mandated benefits burden of large companies.

If large companies but not small companies were subject to high minimum wage laws, the large companies would outsource even more functions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Large companies already face health insurance mandates which small companies can avoid.  So what happened to large company low wage jobs as health insurance costs went through the roof?  Those jobs were outsourced to small companies that didn&#8217;t have the mandated benefits burden of large companies.</p>
<p>If large companies but not small companies were subject to high minimum wage laws, the large companies would outsource even more functions.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/the-downside-of-minimum-wage-legislation.html/comment-page-1#comment-180462</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Sep 2009 18:32:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6274#comment-180462</guid>
		<description>I have not read the book but would like to know what time frame the data covers.  I would think that a profitable business may let natural attrition take care of any extra labor.  I know when I managed a restaurant that employed a lot of minimum and just above minimum wage I would cut hours (no over time) in the short run and cut back on hiring.  Most (if not all) unskilled labor industries have very high turnover over 40%+.  I watched my P&amp;L close as I am sure any business owner does, but you still have a service or good to provide to your customers.  
So there has to be some stickiness to the amount of employees that you have.  As people leave naturally you would not want to fill behind that person and split up those duties to other employees.  It may take some time to see an impact.  This is assuming you have not been able to increase prices or decrease services.   </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have not read the book but would like to know what time frame the data covers.  I would think that a profitable business may let natural attrition take care of any extra labor.  I know when I managed a restaurant that employed a lot of minimum and just above minimum wage I would cut hours (no over time) in the short run and cut back on hiring.  Most (if not all) unskilled labor industries have very high turnover over 40%+.  I watched my P&amp;L close as I am sure any business owner does, but you still have a service or good to provide to your customers.<br />
So there has to be some stickiness to the amount of employees that you have.  As people leave naturally you would not want to fill behind that person and split up those duties to other employees.  It may take some time to see an impact.  This is assuming you have not been able to increase prices or decrease services.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/the-downside-of-minimum-wage-legislation.html/comment-page-1#comment-180461</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Sep 2009 18:22:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6274#comment-180461</guid>
		<description>Prof Boudreaux reply is wonderful (as usual) but leaves out one important thing:  the statute that putatively overrides the law ALSO raises the costs of the transaction (the hiring).  Therefore, the harm to low wage workers is direct.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Prof Boudreaux reply is wonderful (as usual) but leaves out one important thing:  the statute that putatively overrides the law ALSO raises the costs of the transaction (the hiring).  Therefore, the harm to low wage workers is direct.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/the-downside-of-minimum-wage-legislation.html/comment-page-1#comment-180460</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Sep 2009 18:01:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6274#comment-180460</guid>
		<description>I think you are using &quot;supply&quot; and &quot;demand&quot; opposite to what I am used to.  Laborers supply labor.  Employers demand it.  A minimum wage is a price floor which, when above the equilibrium price, creates a supply surplus (aka unemployment).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you are using &#8220;supply&#8221; and &#8220;demand&#8221; opposite to what I am used to.  Laborers supply labor.  Employers demand it.  A minimum wage is a price floor which, when above the equilibrium price, creates a supply surplus (aka unemployment).</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/the-downside-of-minimum-wage-legislation.html/comment-page-1#comment-180459</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Sep 2009 17:55:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6274#comment-180459</guid>
		<description>The RSF study shows that many low wage workers voluntarily supply their labor below the arbitrary price set by the government. Both the employer and worker benefit from such a voluntary exchange; otherwise the exchange would not occur. Employers necessarily would demand fewer low wage workers at the higher government-set price, as they would not benefit from such an exchange at the margin.The RSF study undermines the Card-Krueger work by showing that that market rate for labor often prevails despite government price fixing. Thus, the aggregated employment data used in the analysis may not capture the true quantity of labor that would be demanded were the minimum wage universally accepted/enforced.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The RSF study shows that many low wage workers voluntarily supply their labor below the arbitrary price set by the government. Both the employer and worker benefit from such a voluntary exchange; otherwise the exchange would not occur. Employers necessarily would demand fewer low wage workers at the higher government-set price, as they would not benefit from such an exchange at the margin.The RSF study undermines the Card-Krueger work by showing that that market rate for labor often prevails despite government price fixing. Thus, the aggregated employment data used in the analysis may not capture the true quantity of labor that would be demanded were the minimum wage universally accepted/enforced.</p>
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		<title>By: hamilt0n</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/the-downside-of-minimum-wage-legislation.html/comment-page-1#comment-180457</link>
		<dc:creator>hamilt0n</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Sep 2009 17:17:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6274#comment-180457</guid>
		<description>1) Europe is not a country.
2) Most countries in Europe have permanently higher rates of unemployment than in the US, which would support the thesis that minimum wage laws hurt low-wage workers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1) Europe is not a country.<br />
2) Most countries in Europe have permanently higher rates of unemployment than in the US, which would support the thesis that minimum wage laws hurt low-wage workers.</p>
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		<title>By: Sam Grove</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/the-downside-of-minimum-wage-legislation.html/comment-page-1#comment-180456</link>
		<dc:creator>Sam Grove</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Sep 2009 17:09:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6274#comment-180456</guid>
		<description>I also suggest that the minimum wage reduces the supply of jobs below that wage level thus increasing the relative demand for such jobs, which is most detrimental to those with the least valued skills.
That makes it a buyer&#039;s market.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I also suggest that the minimum wage reduces the supply of jobs below that wage level thus increasing the relative demand for such jobs, which is most detrimental to those with the least valued skills.<br />
That makes it a buyer&#8217;s market.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/the-downside-of-minimum-wage-legislation.html/comment-page-1#comment-180455</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Sep 2009 16:28:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6274#comment-180455</guid>
		<description>Most bigger companies probably don&#039;t use such low wage labor.  But the fact will always remain, that if an employer does not think he can bring in from a person&#039;s labor more than that labor costs him, he simply won&#039;t buy that labor.

That may mean the employer chooses not to do those low labor tasks, or it may mean he distributes those tasks among the existing responsibilities of his higher wage employees.

Either way, no matter how you slice it, it is the low wage worker who suffers most.

The true minimum wage is always zero.  

Draw your supply and demand curves, cut them with an above market price floor, and tell me if you like what you see--a surplus of supply (labor).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Most bigger companies probably don&#8217;t use such low wage labor.  But the fact will always remain, that if an employer does not think he can bring in from a person&#8217;s labor more than that labor costs him, he simply won&#8217;t buy that labor.</p>
<p>That may mean the employer chooses not to do those low labor tasks, or it may mean he distributes those tasks among the existing responsibilities of his higher wage employees.</p>
<p>Either way, no matter how you slice it, it is the low wage worker who suffers most.</p>
<p>The true minimum wage is always zero.  </p>
<p>Draw your supply and demand curves, cut them with an above market price floor, and tell me if you like what you see&#8211;a surplus of supply (labor).</p>
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		<title>By: Sceptic</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/the-downside-of-minimum-wage-legislation.html/comment-page-1#comment-180451</link>
		<dc:creator>Sceptic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Sep 2009 15:57:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6274#comment-180451</guid>
		<description>Well, what about other countries like Europe? And what about big companies rather than small companies? I&#039;d be interested in a study that tries to quantify the effect on big companies (more than 200 employees). 

I think that those companies can adjust to minimum wages more easily and compensate the payroll costs in an adequate fashion. 

So what about giving minimum wages based on company size?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, what about other countries like Europe? And what about big companies rather than small companies? I&#8217;d be interested in a study that tries to quantify the effect on big companies (more than 200 employees). </p>
<p>I think that those companies can adjust to minimum wages more easily and compensate the payroll costs in an adequate fashion. </p>
<p>So what about giving minimum wages based on company size?</p>
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		<title>By: Jake Russ</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/the-downside-of-minimum-wage-legislation.html/comment-page-1#comment-180448</link>
		<dc:creator>Jake Russ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Sep 2009 15:30:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6274#comment-180448</guid>
		<description>The NYT article states &quot;...When the Russell Sage Foundation announced a grant to help finance the survey, it said that low-wage workers were “hard to find” for interviews...&quot;

Exactly. They&#039;re hard to find for interviews because minimum-wage laws destroy jobs for low-skilled workers. You can&#039;t interview the guy/gal whose job doesn&#039;t exist.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The NYT article states &#8220;&#8230;When the Russell Sage Foundation announced a grant to help finance the survey, it said that low-wage workers were “hard to find” for interviews&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>Exactly. They&#8217;re hard to find for interviews because minimum-wage laws destroy jobs for low-skilled workers. You can&#8217;t interview the guy/gal whose job doesn&#8217;t exist.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/09/the-downside-of-minimum-wage-legislation.html/comment-page-1#comment-180446</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Sep 2009 15:12:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6274#comment-180446</guid>
		<description>He hit the nail on the head, here.  It&#039;s rather like the drug war.  Outlawing drugs doesn&#039;t mean people stop wanting drugs.  Rather, the market is forced underground and the only way for users to obtain the object of their demand is through illegal channels.

It is the same here.  With minimum wage laws, they have effectively outlawed low-wage labor.  But outlawing low-wage labor does not reduce the demand for it.  Rather, it means that low-wage labor must be obtained through &quot;extra-legal&quot; means.  In this case, that means intentionally skirting the laws and pressuring employees to help the employers control costs by doing the same.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>He hit the nail on the head, here.  It&#8217;s rather like the drug war.  Outlawing drugs doesn&#8217;t mean people stop wanting drugs.  Rather, the market is forced underground and the only way for users to obtain the object of their demand is through illegal channels.</p>
<p>It is the same here.  With minimum wage laws, they have effectively outlawed low-wage labor.  But outlawing low-wage labor does not reduce the demand for it.  Rather, it means that low-wage labor must be obtained through &#8220;extra-legal&#8221; means.  In this case, that means intentionally skirting the laws and pressuring employees to help the employers control costs by doing the same.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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