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	<title>Comments on: A turning point?</title>
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	<description>where orders emerge</description>
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		<title>By: LowcountryJoe</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/10/a-turning-point.html/comment-page-1#comment-65755</link>
		<dc:creator>LowcountryJoe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 10:39:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6866#comment-65755</guid>
		<description>&gt;&gt;In proper economic tradition, however, I think the profession has realized the long term advantage to them in siding with government...This is not unique to economics. Governments, starting around the same time, have also purchased almost all of the hard sciences...&lt;&lt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I think that you&#039;ve nailed it here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt;&gt;In proper economic tradition, however, I think the profession has realized the long term advantage to them in siding with government&#8230;This is not unique to economics. Governments, starting around the same time, have also purchased almost all of the hard sciences&#8230;&lt;&lt;</p>
<p>I think that you&#39;ve nailed it here.</p>
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		<title>By: netsp</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/10/a-turning-point.html/comment-page-1#comment-65747</link>
		<dc:creator>netsp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 06:13:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6866#comment-65747</guid>
		<description>Very thoughtful comments. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I think I find myself predicted accurately by your theory. I cannot understand Economics as Math, I am suspicious of Economics as Philosophy in the sense that you describe. I wonder what Karl Popper (or even Hayek, who praised Popper) would have made of modern Economics. I tend to appreciate cute Economics and greatly enjoy hearing about behavioural Economics&#039; counter-intuitive experimental outcomes. I probably have more confidence then is merited in this group&#039;s ability to produce something useful for that reason. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Do you have no confidence at all in cute Economics&#039; (I assume you are referring to most experimental behavioural economics, but please correct me if I am wrong) ability to provide a more robust starting point on the path to taking economics from philosophy to science?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very thoughtful comments. </p>
<p>I think I find myself predicted accurately by your theory. I cannot understand Economics as Math, I am suspicious of Economics as Philosophy in the sense that you describe. I wonder what Karl Popper (or even Hayek, who praised Popper) would have made of modern Economics. I tend to appreciate cute Economics and greatly enjoy hearing about behavioural Economics&#39; counter-intuitive experimental outcomes. I probably have more confidence then is merited in this group&#39;s ability to produce something useful for that reason. </p>
<p>Do you have no confidence at all in cute Economics&#39; (I assume you are referring to most experimental behavioural economics, but please correct me if I am wrong) ability to provide a more robust starting point on the path to taking economics from philosophy to science?</p>
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		<title>By: Ray Gardner</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/10/a-turning-point.html/comment-page-1#comment-65739</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray Gardner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 01:29:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6866#comment-65739</guid>
		<description>Free market economics basically say that we can&#039;t possibly know enough about the innumerable and tiny little details that go into a dynamic economy. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Central planners think that it can be done. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;So as the government grows, those in positions of influence seek to find justifications for the expanding state. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I don&#039;t see any evidence that the human race has broken the pattern of the rise and fall of civilization, and so since we&#039;re on an inevitable track towards despotism, this has less to do with economics, and more to do with the problem of centralized power. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;It used to be the church, now it&#039;s economics. But men in power will glom on to whatever tools necessary to justify their arrogance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Free market economics basically say that we can&#39;t possibly know enough about the innumerable and tiny little details that go into a dynamic economy. </p>
<p>Central planners think that it can be done. </p>
<p>So as the government grows, those in positions of influence seek to find justifications for the expanding state. </p>
<p>I don&#39;t see any evidence that the human race has broken the pattern of the rise and fall of civilization, and so since we&#39;re on an inevitable track towards despotism, this has less to do with economics, and more to do with the problem of centralized power. </p>
<p>It used to be the church, now it&#39;s economics. But men in power will glom on to whatever tools necessary to justify their arrogance.</p>
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		<title>By: m4liberty</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/10/a-turning-point.html/comment-page-1#comment-65733</link>
		<dc:creator>m4liberty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Oct 2009 22:58:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6866#comment-65733</guid>
		<description>Thomas-&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I completely agree with you and think that you&#039;ve illustrated your point very clearly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thomas-</p>
<p>I completely agree with you and think that you&#39;ve illustrated your point very clearly.</p>
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		<title>By: joenorton</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/10/a-turning-point.html/comment-page-1#comment-65725</link>
		<dc:creator>joenorton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Oct 2009 22:04:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6866#comment-65725</guid>
		<description>I think Russ is saying that this Nobel, and the debate going on recently about the wrong-turn in economics in general, has advanced the ball just a bit towards that goal. No one is saying &#039;done, all well and good since 8am Monday&#039;, just that it&#039;s an exciting time to be an economist because of the growing potential for a shift.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Russ is saying that this Nobel, and the debate going on recently about the wrong-turn in economics in general, has advanced the ball just a bit towards that goal. No one is saying &#39;done, all well and good since 8am Monday&#39;, just that it&#39;s an exciting time to be an economist because of the growing potential for a shift.</p>
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		<title>By: sandre</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/10/a-turning-point.html/comment-page-1#comment-65724</link>
		<dc:creator>sandre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Oct 2009 21:47:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6866#comment-65724</guid>
		<description>Danielle tried to mother me on several occasions. Mom&#039;s well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Danielle tried to mother me on several occasions. Mom&#39;s well.</p>
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		<title>By: JohnK</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/10/a-turning-point.html/comment-page-1#comment-65708</link>
		<dc:creator>JohnK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Oct 2009 19:57:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6866#comment-65708</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;The politicians came looking for a politically palatable solution, and the Keynesians had an answer. &lt;/i&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Politicians always have the same answer: more.  More government, more spending, more laws, more control, more regulations, always more.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Keynes simply provides them with intellectual justification.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>The politicians came looking for a politically palatable solution, and the Keynesians had an answer. </i></p>
<p>Politicians always have the same answer: more.  More government, more spending, more laws, more control, more regulations, always more.</p>
<p>Keynes simply provides them with intellectual justification.</p>
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		<title>By: JohnK</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/10/a-turning-point.html/comment-page-1#comment-65707</link>
		<dc:creator>JohnK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Oct 2009 19:53:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6866#comment-65707</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d enjoy watching government officials and those who encouraged them go on trial for unjustly spending money that was not theirs to spend.&lt;br&gt;Crimes like larceny, robbery and fraud come to mind.&lt;br&gt;Especially with regards to Social Security and the other government Ponzi schemes.  Any and all politicos who support those programs should be in a cell next to Madoff.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#39;d enjoy watching government officials and those who encouraged them go on trial for unjustly spending money that was not theirs to spend.<br />Crimes like larceny, robbery and fraud come to mind.<br />Especially with regards to Social Security and the other government Ponzi schemes.  Any and all politicos who support those programs should be in a cell next to Madoff.</p>
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		<title>By: DRDR</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/10/a-turning-point.html/comment-page-1#comment-65705</link>
		<dc:creator>DRDR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Oct 2009 19:35:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6866#comment-65705</guid>
		<description>Russ&#039; point is all well and good. But is anyone going to give me my first faculty job in the next few years for presenting an argument without the kind of formalism that the field has demanded over the last 60 years? I look forward to not having to worry about that constraint.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Russ&#39; point is all well and good. But is anyone going to give me my first faculty job in the next few years for presenting an argument without the kind of formalism that the field has demanded over the last 60 years? I look forward to not having to worry about that constraint.</p>
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		<title>By: ThomasL</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/10/a-turning-point.html/comment-page-1#comment-65704</link>
		<dc:creator>ThomasL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Oct 2009 19:26:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6866#comment-65704</guid>
		<description>I think Krugman nails this one.  The important sections being:&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&quot;[When] asked for advice about what to do, replied that well, it’s all very complicated… Meanwhile, Keynesian economists... basically said “Push this button — we need more G”.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The politicians came looking for a politically palatable solution, and the Keynesians had an answer.  &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The important shift in economics was the shift in the &lt;i&gt;role&lt;/i&gt; of economics.  It was the transfer of the entire institution from academic discipline to political brain trust.  Economists were the tools used to argue that all of the impossible things I promise my constituents are, in fact, possible.  Worldwide, governments from roughly 1930 onward bought the economics profession lock, stock, and barrel, and not surprisingly they hired the people that told them what they wanted to hear and what they wanted to sell.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The failure of Keynesian economics in the late &#039;70s and early &#039;80s was most importantly a political failure, not an academic one.  Through bad policies (admittedly, many of them theirs) the political climate shifted and they were left out in the cold.  In proper economic tradition, however, I think the profession has realized the long term advantage to them in siding with government.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;This is not unique to economics.  Governments, starting around the same time, have also purchased almost all of the hard sciences (eg, NSF) and the arts (eg, NEA) as well.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;What died in the Depression was independent scientific (and eventually, artistic) inquiry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Krugman nails this one.  The important sections being:</p>
<p>&#8220;[When] asked for advice about what to do, replied that well, it’s all very complicated… Meanwhile, Keynesian economists&#8230; basically said “Push this button — we need more G”.</p>
<p>The politicians came looking for a politically palatable solution, and the Keynesians had an answer.  </p>
<p>The important shift in economics was the shift in the <i>role</i> of economics.  It was the transfer of the entire institution from academic discipline to political brain trust.  Economists were the tools used to argue that all of the impossible things I promise my constituents are, in fact, possible.  Worldwide, governments from roughly 1930 onward bought the economics profession lock, stock, and barrel, and not surprisingly they hired the people that told them what they wanted to hear and what they wanted to sell.</p>
<p>The failure of Keynesian economics in the late &#39;70s and early &#39;80s was most importantly a political failure, not an academic one.  Through bad policies (admittedly, many of them theirs) the political climate shifted and they were left out in the cold.  In proper economic tradition, however, I think the profession has realized the long term advantage to them in siding with government.</p>
<p>This is not unique to economics.  Governments, starting around the same time, have also purchased almost all of the hard sciences (eg, NSF) and the arts (eg, NEA) as well.</p>
<p>What died in the Depression was independent scientific (and eventually, artistic) inquiry.</p>
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		<title>By: Economiser</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/10/a-turning-point.html/comment-page-1#comment-65691</link>
		<dc:creator>Economiser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Oct 2009 18:35:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6866#comment-65691</guid>
		<description>Can we please put aside the Krugman vs. Romer bickering and get back to the real issue - why Barack Obama was passed over for the Nobel?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can we please put aside the Krugman vs. Romer bickering and get back to the real issue &#8211; why Barack Obama was passed over for the Nobel?</p>
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		<title>By: BoscoH</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/10/a-turning-point.html/comment-page-1#comment-65690</link>
		<dc:creator>BoscoH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Oct 2009 18:32:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6866#comment-65690</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t recall asking any questions, Daniel. And I&#039;m pretty sure I&#039;m not the one who is hyper-sensitive here. Besides, I&#039;d pay to watch Nuremberg trials for everyone, so you&#039;ve got the wrong guy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#39;t recall asking any questions, Daniel. And I&#39;m pretty sure I&#39;m not the one who is hyper-sensitive here. Besides, I&#39;d pay to watch Nuremberg trials for everyone, so you&#39;ve got the wrong guy.</p>
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		<title>By: danielkuehn</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/10/a-turning-point.html/comment-page-1#comment-65688</link>
		<dc:creator>danielkuehn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Oct 2009 18:23:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6866#comment-65688</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m just responding to your bizarre questions about Bush, BoscoH.  When someone inappropriately calls you a racist you guys go apeshit - and now you&#039;re being hypersensitive to any suggestion that Arrowsmith probably shouldn&#039;t compare Krugman to Nazis?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#39;m just responding to your bizarre questions about Bush, BoscoH.  When someone inappropriately calls you a racist you guys go apeshit &#8211; and now you&#39;re being hypersensitive to any suggestion that Arrowsmith probably shouldn&#39;t compare Krugman to Nazis?</p>
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		<title>By: danielkuehn</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/10/a-turning-point.html/comment-page-1#comment-65685</link>
		<dc:creator>danielkuehn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Oct 2009 18:05:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6866#comment-65685</guid>
		<description>Why do you think it doesn&#039;t synch up? Because Asimov wouldn&#039;t have seen eye to eye with Ostrom and Williamson and Don built a case that Krugman wanted to plan people&#039;s lives based on a singular response to a book he read as a kid?&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;What I&#039;m saying is that if one would put less stock in their ability to decipher people&#039;s motives based on their reading habits or even their inspiration from their reading habits, and if one would just give Krugman the benefit of the doubt on understanding that &quot;science fiction&quot; is &quot;fictional&quot;, then the two quotes can synch pretty well.&lt;/BR&gt;&lt;/BR&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why do you think it doesn&#39;t synch up? Because Asimov wouldn&#39;t have seen eye to eye with Ostrom and Williamson and Don built a case that Krugman wanted to plan people&#39;s lives based on a singular response to a book he read as a kid?</p>
<p>What I&#39;m saying is that if one would put less stock in their ability to decipher people&#39;s motives based on their reading habits or even their inspiration from their reading habits, and if one would just give Krugman the benefit of the doubt on understanding that &#8220;science fiction&#8221; is &#8220;fictional&#8221;, then the two quotes can synch pretty well.</p>
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		<title>By: BoscoH</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/10/a-turning-point.html/comment-page-1#comment-65684</link>
		<dc:creator>BoscoH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Oct 2009 18:05:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6866#comment-65684</guid>
		<description>You should take Arrowsmith&#039;s quip in context and not play the role of comment board grandma with fragile ears.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You should take Arrowsmith&#39;s quip in context and not play the role of comment board grandma with fragile ears.</p>
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		<title>By: jdouglasj</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/10/a-turning-point.html/comment-page-1#comment-65683</link>
		<dc:creator>jdouglasj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Oct 2009 17:58:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6866#comment-65683</guid>
		<description>??</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>??</p>
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		<title>By: danielkuehn</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/10/a-turning-point.html/comment-page-1#comment-65681</link>
		<dc:creator>danielkuehn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Oct 2009 17:53:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6866#comment-65681</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m confused about your point.  I should find Arrowsmith&#039;s reference funny because we&#039;ve been enduring six years of the same odious references from the Code Pink crowd?  What exactly are you trying to say?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#39;m confused about your point.  I should find Arrowsmith&#39;s reference funny because we&#39;ve been enduring six years of the same odious references from the Code Pink crowd?  What exactly are you trying to say?</p>
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		<title>By: BoscoH</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/10/a-turning-point.html/comment-page-1#comment-65680</link>
		<dc:creator>BoscoH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Oct 2009 17:51:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6866#comment-65680</guid>
		<description>Oh, I think it might have started around 2003, but calling for Nuremberg trials for someone else just means you have a slight disagreement which could be settled over lunch if not over AOL IM.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, I think it might have started around 2003, but calling for Nuremberg trials for someone else just means you have a slight disagreement which could be settled over lunch if not over AOL IM.</p>
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		<title>By: danielkuehn</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/10/a-turning-point.html/comment-page-1#comment-65679</link>
		<dc:creator>danielkuehn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Oct 2009 17:48:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6866#comment-65679</guid>
		<description>Huh?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Huh?</p>
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		<title>By: BoscoH</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/10/a-turning-point.html/comment-page-1#comment-65678</link>
		<dc:creator>BoscoH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Oct 2009 17:47:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=6866#comment-65678</guid>
		<description>How you have any outrage left from the Bush/Cheney years is beyond my comprehension!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How you have any outrage left from the Bush/Cheney years is beyond my comprehension!</p>
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