There you go again, MB. One day you will identify the concepts, and come closer to reality. Man really does have a nature, and the more you contemplate your observations of man, the sooner you will recognize what that nature is, what rights are, and how rights necessarily derive from that nature.

The most central authority is most suspect, and I can tell you why I think so in utilitarian terms. A utilitarian can conclude that a minimal state organized around classical property is most useful, but I’ll stick with Bentham on the general proposition. You aren’t actually Nature, and you don’t speak for Nature either, even if you think you do.

Thus freed from “natural” rights he – and many collectivists after him – were able to say liberty and the rights that liberty entails were whatever the society at large accepted them to be.

So murder or theft of private property are recognized as “crimes” simply because our society has evolved in that manner. It just so happened that it was for the good of the majority that such things be crimes.

BUT . . . there’s always a but. . but this leaves the state open to impose new “rights” while claiming it’s for the good of the majority. (Pete Singer, your office is calling.)

Thus Bentham preached a most perverse kind of “liberty:” he’d fit right into an Obama Whitehouse. Speak of liberty while imposing the will of the state on the populace as a whole for their own good.

Why in the name of God, would I want to “really talk to you” about anything when you are wrong now, wrong yesterday, and, unless you have your “road to Damascus” moment tonight, you will be wrong tomorrow.

Your input to this entire thread consist of silly ass leftist loving drivel and shows just how far to the left you are.

So, I thank you for your service to the truth.

How much government do you think we should have, what exactly should it do, and how do you arrive at your conclusion?

I personally think libertarianism has a lot to offer. But when your fellow classical liberals raise counter-arguments, just counter the counter-arguments. Don’t fool yourself into thinking your fellow classical liberals are socialists or anti-freedom out of a misguided impulse to circle the wagons.

Thank you Mother.

You may assume that I assume that, but what I think is that he became MORE libertarian as time went on. I have no reason so suppose that he embraced the libertarian agenda. I also suppose that what encouraged his libertarian progression was a lifetime of watching politicians.

That does it for a lot of people.

How do we really talk about this when it’s all “collectivist idiot” and “stupid socialist” with you?

And yes – Brooks is incomplete as well. I also thought he (1.) oversimplified both Hume and Bentham, and (2.) caricatured modern policy makers too. There were definite shortcomings that could be criticized there too. The difference I see is that modern Lockeans or Jeffersonians, for example, don’t try to flush out libertarians or Austrians or communitarians from the liberal tradition. That’s what I see as really dangerous – and these two articles were more a spring-board for that than anything else.

Hoover is a fool, Teddy Roosevelt lied. There is no we, he knew, and I know it; but, you socialist fools and most of the rest of America are so brainwashed and indoctrinated that no one recognizes the truth.

We? Crap. Jesse Helms, one man, Senator chair of the Senate Foreign Relations committee personally and individually denied William Weld, Clinton’s appointee to be the Ambassador to Mexico, any chance of approval or confirmation. He did it by standing individually firm and resolute against all the democrats and most of his own party.

There is no we. There is me and they.

Over 70% are now convinced that any government involvement in healthcare would be a disaster, yet “they” (Reid and Pelosi) are going to use Art 1, Sec 5, para 2, to ram that sucker down our throats through house and senate rules, they wrote, to allow them to attach it to another bill as an amendment, thus allowing all the nay sayers to vote for it and deny responsibility.

There is no we.

Sooner you two stupid socialists learn that the better off your world will be.