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	<title>Comments on: George Selgin Reviews Steil and Hinds</title>
	<atom:link href="http://cafehayek.com/2009/11/george-selgin-reviews-steil-and-hinds.html/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/11/george-selgin-reviews-steil-and-hinds.html</link>
	<description>where orders emerge</description>
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		<title>By: Sam Grove</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/11/george-selgin-reviews-steil-and-hinds.html/comment-page-1#comment-189431</link>
		<dc:creator>Sam Grove</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Nov 2009 00:09:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=7162#comment-189431</guid>
		<description>It always strikes me how so many people point at problems in a politically dominated system, citing them as failures of a free system.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It always strikes me how so many people point at problems in a politically dominated system, citing them as failures of a free system.</p>
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		<title>By: wbond</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/11/george-selgin-reviews-steil-and-hinds.html/comment-page-1#comment-189353</link>
		<dc:creator>wbond</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 19:01:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=7162#comment-189353</guid>
		<description>What&#039;s wrong with being whiggish?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What&#8217;s wrong with being whiggish?</p>
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		<title>By: J Cortez</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/11/george-selgin-reviews-steil-and-hinds.html/comment-page-1#comment-189345</link>
		<dc:creator>J Cortez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 18:33:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=7162#comment-189345</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the link to the review. Agree or disagree with his arguments, I&#039;m a fan of anything Selgin writes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the link to the review. Agree or disagree with his arguments, I&#8217;m a fan of anything Selgin writes.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/11/george-selgin-reviews-steil-and-hinds.html/comment-page-1#comment-189334</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 17:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=7162#comment-189334</guid>
		<description>Well, so long as we are recommending reading:Geoffrey Parker, &lt;i&gt;The Military Revolution: Military Innovation and the Rise of the West, 1500-1800&lt;/i&gt;&amp;Daniel Roche, &lt;i&gt;La France des Lumieres&lt;/i&gt; (there is an English translation - &quot;France in the Enlightenment&quot;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, so long as we are recommending reading:Geoffrey Parker, <i>The Military Revolution: Military Innovation and the Rise of the West, 1500-1800</i>&amp;Daniel Roche, <i>La France des Lumieres</i> (there is an English translation &#8211; &#8220;France in the Enlightenment&#8221;)</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/11/george-selgin-reviews-steil-and-hinds.html/comment-page-1#comment-189332</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 16:52:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=7162#comment-189332</guid>
		<description>The best argument you can make for public debt is that it double-edged sword.  I see the more wicked of those edges being used than the less wicked one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The best argument you can make for public debt is that it double-edged sword.  I see the more wicked of those edges being used than the less wicked one.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/11/george-selgin-reviews-steil-and-hinds.html/comment-page-1#comment-189324</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 16:33:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=7162#comment-189324</guid>
		<description>I see at sort of a vicious cycle.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I see at sort of a vicious cycle.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/11/george-selgin-reviews-steil-and-hinds.html/comment-page-1#comment-189322</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 16:30:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=7162#comment-189322</guid>
		<description>Then what was this!:

&quot;It was something they put a heck of effort into because all of them had such a hard time getting around their creditors. Independence was something that absolutist monarchs wanted, yet they could not achieve in large part because of the consequences of their desire to be absolutist.&quot;

I thought we were finally agreeing!  BTW - I highly suggest you read North and Weingast&#039;s &quot;Credible Commitment in Early Modern Europe&quot; - I think you&#039;ll enjoy it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Then what was this!:</p>
<p>&#8220;It was something they put a heck of effort into because all of them had such a hard time getting around their creditors. Independence was something that absolutist monarchs wanted, yet they could not achieve in large part because of the consequences of their desire to be absolutist.&#8221;</p>
<p>I thought we were finally agreeing!  BTW &#8211; I highly suggest you read North and Weingast&#8217;s &#8220;Credible Commitment in Early Modern Europe&#8221; &#8211; I think you&#8217;ll enjoy it.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/11/george-selgin-reviews-steil-and-hinds.html/comment-page-1#comment-189321</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 16:29:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=7162#comment-189321</guid>
		<description>What debt finance does is fuel the dreams of tyrants, idealists, warmongers, etc., even if they cannot fully fulfill those dreams.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What debt finance does is fuel the dreams of tyrants, idealists, warmongers, etc., even if they cannot fully fulfill those dreams.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/11/george-selgin-reviews-steil-and-hinds.html/comment-page-1#comment-189320</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 16:29:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=7162#comment-189320</guid>
		<description>Pardon my denseness - but could explain the quote?  I&#039;m intrigued and amused :)  And I should say, it&#039;s always great to talk to you - I do economics, but I love reading history when I get to choose what I read.  I read a lot of early American history, but a while back I read James McDonald&#039;s &quot;A Free Nation Deep in Debt&quot;, which familiarized me with these issues.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pardon my denseness &#8211; but could explain the quote?  I&#8217;m intrigued and amused <img src='http://cafehayek.com/site/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />   And I should say, it&#8217;s always great to talk to you &#8211; I do economics, but I love reading history when I get to choose what I read.  I read a lot of early American history, but a while back I read James McDonald&#8217;s &#8220;A Free Nation Deep in Debt&#8221;, which familiarized me with these issues.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/11/george-selgin-reviews-steil-and-hinds.html/comment-page-1#comment-189319</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 16:26:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=7162#comment-189319</guid>
		<description>Sure, but the advantage of public debt and it&#039;s compatibility with the liberal state (which you seem to be admiting in your comment below) don&#039;t mean that such a state can&#039;t get over-extended.  Nobody is making that argument!  After all, the British were able to get a hell of a lot farther before becoming more hesitant than the Spanish or the French were ever able to.  That&#039;s the point.  Not that there aren&#039;t eventual limits to borrowing - of course there are! - but that those limits are pushed out further when you have a representative government that doesn&#039;t make creditors skiddish.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sure, but the advantage of public debt and it&#8217;s compatibility with the liberal state (which you seem to be admiting in your comment below) don&#8217;t mean that such a state can&#8217;t get over-extended.  Nobody is making that argument!  After all, the British were able to get a hell of a lot farther before becoming more hesitant than the Spanish or the French were ever able to.  That&#8217;s the point.  Not that there aren&#8217;t eventual limits to borrowing &#8211; of course there are! &#8211; but that those limits are pushed out further when you have a representative government that doesn&#8217;t make creditors skiddish.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/11/george-selgin-reviews-steil-and-hinds.html/comment-page-1#comment-189318</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 16:26:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=7162#comment-189318</guid>
		<description>No, debt finance and absolutism/authoritarianism go hand in hand!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, debt finance and absolutism/authoritarianism go hand in hand!</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/11/george-selgin-reviews-steil-and-hinds.html/comment-page-1#comment-189316</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 16:24:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=7162#comment-189316</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I don&#039;t know if historians talk more absolutely, but on an economics blog we&#039;re inevitably going to be talking and thinking on the margin.&lt;/i&gt;I&#039;m stealing this from someone else, but I&#039;ve always like this myself: historians come in two varieties - lumpers and dividers.  Though not a historian, I&#039;m largely a lumper.Well, France was involved in lots of land wars long before Louis XIV.  Britain had a natural geographic advantage in being an island nation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I don&#8217;t know if historians talk more absolutely, but on an economics blog we&#8217;re inevitably going to be talking and thinking on the margin.</i>I&#8217;m stealing this from someone else, but I&#8217;ve always like this myself: historians come in two varieties &#8211; lumpers and dividers.  Though not a historian, I&#8217;m largely a lumper.Well, France was involved in lots of land wars long before Louis XIV.  Britain had a natural geographic advantage in being an island nation.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/11/george-selgin-reviews-steil-and-hinds.html/comment-page-1#comment-189312</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 16:18:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=7162#comment-189312</guid>
		<description>As an aside, one of the main reasons why the British quit their efforts during the Rev. War was large part due to the fiscal disarray they were facing and the paranoia they had this would lead to a loss of India.  You see this throughout Exchequer documents, etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As an aside, one of the main reasons why the British quit their efforts during the Rev. War was large part due to the fiscal disarray they were facing and the paranoia they had this would lead to a loss of India.  You see this throughout Exchequer documents, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/11/george-selgin-reviews-steil-and-hinds.html/comment-page-1#comment-189311</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 16:14:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=7162#comment-189311</guid>
		<description>OK &quot;more famous&quot;. Come on, mommsen1625, this is a relative/comparative question. We&#039;re talking on the margin. I don&#039;t know if historians talk more absolutely, but on an economics blog we&#039;re inevitably going to be talking and thinking on the margin.RE: &quot;No, to me that says that Britain was doing less risky things - generally - than France was doing. France&#039;s position as a land power in Europe explains this in other words.&quot;Another risky thing would be having a &quot;Sun King&quot;, rather than a monarch that was reigned in by the nobles back in the 13th century.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK &#8220;more famous&#8221;. Come on, mommsen1625, this is a relative/comparative question. We&#8217;re talking on the margin. I don&#8217;t know if historians talk more absolutely, but on an economics blog we&#8217;re inevitably going to be talking and thinking on the margin.RE: &#8220;No, to me that says that Britain was doing less risky things &#8211; generally &#8211; than France was doing. France&#8217;s position as a land power in Europe explains this in other words.&#8221;Another risky thing would be having a &#8220;Sun King&#8221;, rather than a monarch that was reigned in by the nobles back in the 13th century.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/11/george-selgin-reviews-steil-and-hinds.html/comment-page-1#comment-189310</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 16:11:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=7162#comment-189310</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Yes, but which of the three - France, Britain and Spain - are famous for heavy reliance on creditors and which are famous for defaulting on their creditors?&lt;/i&gt;

All three actually.  It just isn&#039;t remembered as much about Britain.  Consider that at the end of the Rev. War that Britain was on its knees fiscally and delaying payments, etc. to its creditors.

&lt;i&gt;I&#039;m having a surprisingly hard time finding a continuous data series on debt burdens and interest rates for France and Britain...&lt;/i&gt;

Welcome to the early modern period.

&lt;i&gt;To me, that says &quot;greater access to credit&quot;.&lt;/i&gt;

No, to me that says that Britain was doing less risky things - generally - than France was doing.  France&#039;s position as a land power in Europe explains this in other words.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Yes, but which of the three &#8211; France, Britain and Spain &#8211; are famous for heavy reliance on creditors and which are famous for defaulting on their creditors?</i></p>
<p>All three actually.  It just isn&#8217;t remembered as much about Britain.  Consider that at the end of the Rev. War that Britain was on its knees fiscally and delaying payments, etc. to its creditors.</p>
<p><i>I&#8217;m having a surprisingly hard time finding a continuous data series on debt burdens and interest rates for France and Britain&#8230;</i></p>
<p>Welcome to the early modern period.</p>
<p><i>To me, that says &#8220;greater access to credit&#8221;.</i></p>
<p>No, to me that says that Britain was doing less risky things &#8211; generally &#8211; than France was doing.  France&#8217;s position as a land power in Europe explains this in other words.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/11/george-selgin-reviews-steil-and-hinds.html/comment-page-1#comment-189308</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 16:08:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=7162#comment-189308</guid>
		<description>Right!  Liberty and debt finance go hand in hand!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Right!  Liberty and debt finance go hand in hand!</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/11/george-selgin-reviews-steil-and-hinds.html/comment-page-1#comment-189306</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 16:07:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=7162#comment-189306</guid>
		<description>I should say &quot;North and Weingast&quot; - since Weingast is in the Mercatus faculty network, I wouldn&#039;t want to offend Russ and Don by excluding him :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I should say &#8220;North and Weingast&#8221; &#8211; since Weingast is in the Mercatus faculty network, I wouldn&#8217;t want to offend Russ and Don by excluding him <img src='http://cafehayek.com/site/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/11/george-selgin-reviews-steil-and-hinds.html/comment-page-1#comment-189305</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 16:03:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=7162#comment-189305</guid>
		<description>Yes, but which of the three - France, Britain and Spain - are famous for heavy reliance on creditors and which are famous for defaulting on their creditors?  And after the serial defaults, which of the three could raise money at high interest rates and which of the three could raise money at low interest rates?

Britain and Holland consistently had higher debt burdens per capita and lower interest rates than France and Spain.

RE: &quot;Finally, France as much access to credit as Britain did&quot;

Then why did it pay higher rates when it had a bigger economy and a lower total debt burden?  In what sense is that &quot;as much access to credit&quot;?  I&#039;m having a surprisingly hard time finding a continuous data series on debt burdens and interest rates for France and Britain, except for a few snapshots in James McDonald&#039;s book.  But those snapshots indicate consistently higher debt burden per capita, smaller economy, and lower interest rates for Britain.  To me, that says &quot;greater access to credit&quot;.  Douglass North agreed and also made the liberty-public debt connection.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, but which of the three &#8211; France, Britain and Spain &#8211; are famous for heavy reliance on creditors and which are famous for defaulting on their creditors?  And after the serial defaults, which of the three could raise money at high interest rates and which of the three could raise money at low interest rates?</p>
<p>Britain and Holland consistently had higher debt burdens per capita and lower interest rates than France and Spain.</p>
<p>RE: &#8220;Finally, France as much access to credit as Britain did&#8221;</p>
<p>Then why did it pay higher rates when it had a bigger economy and a lower total debt burden?  In what sense is that &#8220;as much access to credit&#8221;?  I&#8217;m having a surprisingly hard time finding a continuous data series on debt burdens and interest rates for France and Britain, except for a few snapshots in James McDonald&#8217;s book.  But those snapshots indicate consistently higher debt burden per capita, smaller economy, and lower interest rates for Britain.  To me, that says &#8220;greater access to credit&#8221;.  Douglass North agreed and also made the liberty-public debt connection.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/11/george-selgin-reviews-steil-and-hinds.html/comment-page-1#comment-189294</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 15:44:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=7162#comment-189294</guid>
		<description>Just as a general aside, in the courses on early modern Europe I&#039;ve taken one of the most common themes is the problem of how European states - largely monarchies - were supposed to finance their activities.  It was something they put a heck of effort into because all of them had such a hard time getting around their creditors.  Independence was something that absolutist monarchs wanted, yet they could not achieve in large part because of the consequences of their desire to be absolutist.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just as a general aside, in the courses on early modern Europe I&#8217;ve taken one of the most common themes is the problem of how European states &#8211; largely monarchies &#8211; were supposed to finance their activities.  It was something they put a heck of effort into because all of them had such a hard time getting around their creditors.  Independence was something that absolutist monarchs wanted, yet they could not achieve in large part because of the consequences of their desire to be absolutist.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/11/george-selgin-reviews-steil-and-hinds.html/comment-page-1#comment-189291</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 15:26:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=7162#comment-189291</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I&#039;m saying creditors have traditionally been much less willing to lend to monarchies than republics (for very obvious reasons).&lt;/i&gt;

I&#039;d also argue that this is wrong too.  The relationship between the French monarchy from the time of Henry IV to that of Louis XVI is perfectly illustrative of this; the French crown (bankrupt that it so often was) depended heavily on its creditors to finance its wars.  Of course this generally well known.  What is less known is that Prussia and Britain - both monarchies of varying types - were also heavily indebted to their creditors.  Both nearly sunk under the weight of their debt - a fate which France actually met.

As for France and Britain and tax farmers, Britain also had its own tax farming system, though it worked differently by being decentralized - so that is the difference between the two.  

Finally, France as much access to credit as Britain did; France was after all the most powerful economy in 18th century Europe, had the most powerful land army, etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I&#8217;m saying creditors have traditionally been much less willing to lend to monarchies than republics (for very obvious reasons).</i></p>
<p>I&#8217;d also argue that this is wrong too.  The relationship between the French monarchy from the time of Henry IV to that of Louis XVI is perfectly illustrative of this; the French crown (bankrupt that it so often was) depended heavily on its creditors to finance its wars.  Of course this generally well known.  What is less known is that Prussia and Britain &#8211; both monarchies of varying types &#8211; were also heavily indebted to their creditors.  Both nearly sunk under the weight of their debt &#8211; a fate which France actually met.</p>
<p>As for France and Britain and tax farmers, Britain also had its own tax farming system, though it worked differently by being decentralized &#8211; so that is the difference between the two.  </p>
<p>Finally, France as much access to credit as Britain did; France was after all the most powerful economy in 18th century Europe, had the most powerful land army, etc.</p>
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