It’s Not Sunlight at the End of the Tunnel that You See

I'm giving up libertarianism. I've to think more practically. I'm becoming more and more successful in my life, and I'll have a much easier ride if I became a bleeding heart. Look at George Soros or Warrent Buffet, or Ted Turner they get to suck at political teat - therefore become billionaire, all at the same time pretending to be bleeding hearts. There are very few libertarian billionaires, ever wonder why?

Jeff Yass is a libertarian billionaire. I think Hugh Heffner is one as well. In general, I think that you will rarely hear of libertarian billionaires because they rarely strive for media attention so they can dictate to those they perceive as unwashed masses.

Warren and George are two of the biggest hypocrites to walk the earth.

Followed by Krugman.

What's more pathetic about Krugman is that he thinks he's the ring leader.

Hugh Heffner is a libertine billionaire, Ms Methinks, but you were close. :-D

I prefer libertine to the other available options in California. I heard we was a Randian fellow (not to be mistaken for rand:).

that is, "randy". Oy. Monday am never good.

The day you see the Tabula Rasa and his crew go after the wealthy is the day hell freezes over.

Little wonder that the billionaires such as Warren Buffet love Obama's socialism. For, as usual, the poor get the rhetoric and the vultures get the loot, on the theory that someday it will all find its way back to the poor.

... on the theory that someday it will all find its way back to the poor.

DG,

This is one of the rare times when you're nicer than most! I would phrase that, "on the assertion that someday it will all find its way back to the poor.

I don't think Buffet et al believe for a minute that their socialist policies will encourage the loot to find its way back to the poor.

I have to frighteningly and disturbingly admit that this thought has been creeping around in my brain. Do I want to "be right" and live 80 years being miserable? The libertarians are a bunch of nerds who are so talented they can shoot themselves in the foot while it is still in their mouth. Their number 1 principle is to make sure they never get into office. Like the nerd on every club that is always citing Robin's rules of order.

The only question is, are we losing the culture war, or have we already lost it. I'm tempted to be popular at cocktail parties again. I used to believe I didn't know how to bullshit my way through as a bleeding heart liberal, but I'm starting to fear/believe I might as well try.

Totally agree. Putting Al Gore on your board of directors pays big. if you contribute to democratic campaign, you will be perceived as "humane" capitalist. If you create a ruckus about non-issues like "climate change", "income inequality", "health care", it is almost guaranteed that you'll never ever be harassed by the leftists militants - or not as much as otherwise. It is not just avoiding harassment, it is the political power that you could wield that makes it a high return investment.

If those rewards are not enough, as you say, you can be popular at parties again - that's a biggy. No one likes to be around a "heartless" truth teller.

This is depressing.

I've also been considering an alternative plan, before I give up completely. When you train birds, the way to keep them from biting your fingers is to jam your finger in their face whenever they bite it.

Whenever someone makes some absurd assertion, "Everyone has a right to X", or whatever, I'm going to counter that they are playing it mild and people "deserve" XXXX. It has to be absurd enough that they will say, "Well... that's too much..."

Then the fun begins. You get the opportunity to watch them scramble to discover scarcity, and methods of rationing, and defend them under attack from your *more* compassionate, price-be-damned position.

Now I'm somewhat giddy about trying this out.

that sounds like a good plan.

I'm completely depressed about what's going on. Libertarians are losing the culture war. However, if libertarian beliefs are part of your core fabric, then you have to strive to find a place you can be free. Would you really be less miserable for the next 80 years if you threw in the towel and joined in something you knew to be wrong?

This bill is a couple of thousand pages. It makes many complex promises. But it all boils down to a reduction of Medicare and Medicaid spending.

I have been saying for years that the younger generations would at some point simply refuse to pay the taxes necessary to keep the promises of dead progressives. This is it. This generation is turning the tables on the preceding generations that attempted to tax them into serfdom. And this bill will not be the end of it. Soon they will find it useful and necessary to look the other way at rationing of healthcare to the elderly, and they will refuse to pay to fix Social Security.

These are good things. This had to happen sooner or later, and now is as good a time as any. So I say, go ahead, break the promise. It was a bad idea, and I support you.

"But it all boils down to a reduction of Medicare and Medicaid spending."

How do you figure?

The next generation will not be able to refuse to pay anything. The next generation will have incredibly high taxes, high unemployment and a falling standard of living. They will pay and they will pay dearly.

The only people who will be rich are those who have already become rich by now and who have assets outside the United States, denominated in a currency other than the dollar. At some point (soon, I think) the U.S. will limit the flow of capital to trap the remaining wealth in this country.

"The next generation will not be able to refuse to pay anything."

What cannot happen will not happen. The next generations will be incapable of paying high taxes, and so they will not. That is, I agree with you about the high unemployment and falling standard of living. They will refuse by default, just as this so-called "healthcare bill" is really a refusal by default.

P.S. Just watching CSPAN and saw one of the Dems holding up a sign declaring that this bill will "Save Medicare". They're not saving it. They're slashing it. They're breaking the promise. And Social Security will be next.

Randy, I don't think I understand what you're trying to say.

This bill cuts all private options for individuals and forces them to become wards of the state. It takes away choice and kills the engines of economic growth (incentive to produce). I really don't understand why you see being too bankrupt to pay for medicare and medicaid as a good thing.

Its a good thing because the system has to crash. Its the only way to escape the social ethic and return to a work ethic. Sometimes the best lessons are hard lessons.

Ugh....Randy, this system will take 100 years or more to crash. Even the Soviet Union rotted from the inside until it ended almost arbitrarily after 70 years. The U.S. has a lot of accumulated capital to blow through and no dependent of the state will ever willingly give up their benefits. I don't think you fully appreciate just how horrid an painful what you call for really is. This is no quick revolution. This is a 200 year war.

It's best to defeat this piece of legislation. Defeating it at least gives us to work toward less government. The turnaround of the 1980's won't be possible if this passes.

I have the experience of the Soviet Union in mind, and that certainly is a possible fate - a long, slow, boring death. I'm hoping for a short, sharp, lesson. America at least has a tradition of liberty, faint though it may be. Perhaps this offers some reason to hope.

Once you set up a large entitlement, there is no hope of a short, sharp lesson. All of your traditions are worth nothing. Don't forget that you now have a tradition of entitlement that is at least as strong as individualism and liberty. That's my point. One more massive entitlement and you're past the tipping point.

You don't have to look toward the Soviet Union to find a slow rotting from within either. Just look at Germany, France and Britain.

I have no doubt that it could get really rough. I've studied Soviet history. And I have no doubt that our own political class will be more than willing to give slavery a try after they destroy the markets. Personally, I'm hoping to see a strike movement. Start with a day, then a week, then a month. Hit 'em where it hurts. But the first step in accomplishing this is to develop a new class consciousness. A productive class consciousness - Ayn Rand style. Its been done. It can work.

A productive class consciousness - Ayn Rand style. Its been done. It can work.

where has this been done? I'm not necessarily disagreeing that it has, I just can't think of where.

I'm pretty sure the political class is already giving slavery a try now. They're boiling the frog slowly (recently they've turned up the heat, but they're trying to close the lid).

Solidarity. But in the US it will have to be much bigger, like nearly everyone who earns an honest living going on strike for days, weeks, maybe even months. And the only way that it can be done peacefully is to do it before the fascists drive us over the cliff. We have an election next year. If it doesn't work (and it won't), strike, immediately. November 3, 2010. Start planning for it now.

Randy,

Strikes are easy when everyone is an employee. The U.S. has a lot of entrepreneurs, a lot of business owners who cannot just strike. By the time the Poles struck, they had been beaten down for generations. Property rights didn't exist and they had been living in a hard tyranny for decades. And even then, Poland is and was a smaller country.

Collusion is virtually impossible to achieve. Just try getting hundreds of millions of people to do one thing at the same time at great expense to themselves. Personally, I can't strike without permanently shutting down my business and firing everyone who works for me because I have legal obligations to a national exchange that I must meet every single day. How many other business owners have contractual obligations they must fulfill? How many people would destroy their lives for a day of protest? In the Eastern bloc, lives were already in shambles. There were no entrepreneurs who would lose their businesses. There was nothing left to lose.

I think you have a rather more romantic view of this struggle than is warranted.

Interesting conversation. The only conclusion I can draw from it is that things aren't that bad. Or at least not bad enough to inspire any action. Truth is, I'm not up for a fight either. I'll be retiring in a few years and living off government and/or my kids anyway. And if my kids want to be socialists, who am I to tell them they can't be.

Exactly what I'm saying. Things aren't that bad. Making them worse so that you and your kids and your kid's kids can live in misery in the hope that in 100 years, your descendants can live better for a time (until the cycle restarts) is not really as glamorous as it sounds.

So, Happy Thanksgiving!

"The U.S. has a lot of entrepreneurs, a lot of business owners who cannot just strike."

Understood. But let's face it, the modern political process doesn't work for entrepreneurs. If they're not willing to make a stand, not even a stand alongside the employees who support them, not even a short amount of down time to make a point, then they will deserve the consequences.

I think you missed the part where I said that often "striking" will mean shutting down entirely.

I think lots of entrepreneurs will simply give it up, leave the U.S, operate under the radar or find some kind of solution. The other option is to become rent seekers - which they already have to survive.

There's more than one way to boil a frog. If you turn up the heat, remember to close the lid!

(recently they've turned up the heat, but they're trying to close the lid).

LOL!!!

Past the tipping point. Exactly. The tradition of entitlement is only 80 years old, and it is already on the verge of catastrophic failure.

No, we're not on the verge of catastrophic failure. Failure, yes. Catastrophic, no.

What I meant is that we'll be past the tipping point of socialism and fascism. If this legislation passes, it pretty much renders the constitution moot. There will be no hard, sharp lesson (the sort that whacked us in the 70's) from which we'll recover.

Well, what I see happening is that the entitlement programs, while still in effect, will become meaningless. Because when everyone is entitled, no one is entitled. Yes, you have Social Security, but with hyper inflation it won't even put a roof over your head. Yes, you have medicare, but there are no providers within a 200 mile radius, or none that will see you without waiting for months. Yes, you have a right to work, but with all the punitive legislation focused on employers, no one is going to employ you. So for many, its going to be pretty damn catastrophic.

Re; Fascism; Have been since WWI, and arguably since the Civil War.
Re; Socialism; Irrelevant, as it doesn't really work. Never has, never will.
Re; The Constitution; Is Propaganda. Has been since day one. The "Rule of Law" is shorthand for the "Rule of Those Who Write the Laws".

Okay, Randy. But, even if socialism doesn't work, everyone will suffer because if you work like a dog, your earnings will be taxed away. If you don't work, you won't get anything because there's nobody willing to work to pay for it. So, you will have no way to improve your lot in life.

leaving the country won't help you either. Besides North Korea, the U.S. is the only country that taxes based on citizenship rather than on residency. Giving up your U.S. citizenship can be as difficult as giving up a Soviet citizenship. We're already a soft tyranny. It's a small jump to a hard tyranny. A hard tyranny can last forever. If you think it's bad now, just wait.

gives us a chance to work toward....

sorry.

You're wacked muirego..more ravings no facts..

We've followed Koch Family's (Cato's) recipe for economic development ever since Reagan and here we are

We have?

What makes you think so, (aside from your perpetual premise that all evil is produced by the profit motive and never by political motives)?

What I think happened is that Reagan's campaign was just enough worried about the Ed Clark campaign that they took up with libertarian sounding rhetoric, like getting rid of the Dept, of Energy and the Dept. of Education. We see how far those thoughts went.

You are so full of leftist crap, it oozes around all your thinking.

We've followed Koch Family's (Cato's) recipe for economic development ever since Reagan and here we are... everyone works for Goldman Sachs and now this knucklehead wants them to provide our healthcare too.

I recommend anyone interested in the rest of the story to read "The Predator State" by James K. Galbraith. The subtitle tells a lot... "How Conservatives Abandoned the Free Market and Why Liberals Should Too"

The Cato Institute is nothing but a front group for wealthy elites who think they need more control, more power and more money.

"The Predator State" is a great title for a guy like you, who want's regulated freedom and thinks that's what we've had and that it was going really really well UNTIL RECENTLY!!!

HAHAHAHAHAHA

More-dork!!

Actually it explains how people like you are giving up your freedoms and quality of life to allow an elite minority even more power and control over your life. And the very process involves convincing people like you to defend these wealthy elites in the name of liberty.

Basically you are arguing to go back to the days where you work a 12 hour day, a seven day week, no work place safety standards, no right of dissent and have no other options. You are ignorant of history and you are impressionable and they know that. They've convinced you that you are a defender of liberty as you drive down their privately owned roads to serfdom.

You think you fight the good fight but if you are a typical middle class working person you're selling off your childrens future to be controlled by wealthy elites.

"We've followed Koch Family's (Cato's) recipe for economic development ever since Reagan and here we are"

Wow, this Muirdork thing shouldn't be taken seriously. He spends too much time with Barney Frank.

LMAO... That was one of the most idiotic comments I've seen from you, which is pretty bad when you consider some of you past comments...

How could conservatives and liberals abandon something you insist never existed? Why should anyone waste their time?