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	<title>Comments on: Menacing Krugman</title>
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	<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/11/menacing-krugman.html</link>
	<description>where orders emerge</description>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/11/menacing-krugman.html/comment-page-1#comment-191541</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 13:39:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=7345#comment-191541</guid>
		<description>Hmm... most of his NYT blog audience?

Here&#039;s an amusing example from the China article that Don posted:
&quot;Are you and Joseph Stiglitz invited to participate in the White House Jobs Summit? YOU BOTH DEFINITELY SHOULD BE! I am ready to march in the streets if you are not. I asked Mr. Douthat to see what he could do about making sure that you will be there! After all, the Republicans might as well be helpful about something!&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm&#8230; most of his NYT blog audience?</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s an amusing example from the China article that Don posted:<br />
&#8220;Are you and Joseph Stiglitz invited to participate in the White House Jobs Summit? YOU BOTH DEFINITELY SHOULD BE! I am ready to march in the streets if you are not. I asked Mr. Douthat to see what he could do about making sure that you will be there! After all, the Republicans might as well be helpful about something!&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Curious</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/11/menacing-krugman.html/comment-page-1#comment-191522</link>
		<dc:creator>Curious</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 07:52:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=7345#comment-191522</guid>
		<description>Agreed. Government employees are worse than unemployed because:
1. they cost more
2. their &quot;work&quot; makes life harder for the real wealth creators (private sector)

So every government employee should be counted as more than 1 person on welfare and thus unemployment today is much, much worse than during the Great Depression.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agreed. Government employees are worse than unemployed because:<br />
1. they cost more<br />
2. their &#8220;work&#8221; makes life harder for the real wealth creators (private sector)</p>
<p>So every government employee should be counted as more than 1 person on welfare and thus unemployment today is much, much worse than during the Great Depression.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/11/menacing-krugman.html/comment-page-1#comment-191488</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 03:39:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=7345#comment-191488</guid>
		<description>Don, not to be a suck-up or anything, but I enjoy your constant assault on Krugman.  He&#039;s got a nice fat pedestal from which he can assault us (and the progressives who listen), so don&#039;t change a thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don, not to be a suck-up or anything, but I enjoy your constant assault on Krugman.  He&#8217;s got a nice fat pedestal from which he can assault us (and the progressives who listen), so don&#8217;t change a thing.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/11/menacing-krugman.html/comment-page-1#comment-191487</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 03:31:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=7345#comment-191487</guid>
		<description>As any honest dissenter will tell you, the berating of misguided men with ginormous public pedestals is never tiresome.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As any honest dissenter will tell you, the berating of misguided men with ginormous public pedestals is never tiresome.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/11/menacing-krugman.html/comment-page-1#comment-191459</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=7345#comment-191459</guid>
		<description>His economics predicted this market collapse as libertarians cheered it on.

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>His economics predicted this market collapse as libertarians cheered it on.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/11/menacing-krugman.html/comment-page-1#comment-191444</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 22:05:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=7345#comment-191444</guid>
		<description>Well right - that&#039;s what I would disagree with him on.  But the section we&#039;re both quoting from is called &quot;The Price of Inequality&quot;.  I doubt he questions &quot;a rising tide lifts all boats&quot; so much as he questions whether that oversimplified metaphor really captures all the issues that he (and presumably his readers) care about.

Even you have to admit that the &quot;rising tide&quot; illustration is just an illustration.  Not everyone&#039;s income rises at the same pace, and some decline.  Some people care about that, some people don&#039;t.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well right &#8211; that&#8217;s what I would disagree with him on.  But the section we&#8217;re both quoting from is called &#8220;The Price of Inequality&#8221;.  I doubt he questions &#8220;a rising tide lifts all boats&#8221; so much as he questions whether that oversimplified metaphor really captures all the issues that he (and presumably his readers) care about.</p>
<p>Even you have to admit that the &#8220;rising tide&#8221; illustration is just an illustration.  Not everyone&#8217;s income rises at the same pace, and some decline.  Some people care about that, some people don&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/11/menacing-krugman.html/comment-page-1#comment-191442</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 22:01:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=7345#comment-191442</guid>
		<description>Daniel: Also in the passage I quote above (from Krugman&#039;s NYT Magazine article), he tries to discredit - as being inapplicable today to the U.S. - the &quot;rising tide lifts all boats&quot; metaphor.  Seems pretty clear to me that Krugman is here suggesting that many &#039;boats&#039; are not &#039;rising&#039; in the U.S. -- that &#039;the rich&#039; are benefiting at the expense of the poor.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Daniel: Also in the passage I quote above (from Krugman&#8217;s NYT Magazine article), he tries to discredit &#8211; as being inapplicable today to the U.S. &#8211; the &#8220;rising tide lifts all boats&#8221; metaphor.  Seems pretty clear to me that Krugman is here suggesting that many &#8216;boats&#8217; are not &#8216;rising&#8217; in the U.S. &#8212; that &#8216;the rich&#8217; are benefiting at the expense of the poor.</p>
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		<title>By: Randy</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/11/menacing-krugman.html/comment-page-1#comment-191441</link>
		<dc:creator>Randy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 22:01:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=7345#comment-191441</guid>
		<description>Agreed.  The idea during the Depression was to save people by turning them into government dependents.  The idea during this recession is to rescue the government dependents by borrowing money.  So what happens next time?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agreed.  The idea during the Depression was to save people by turning them into government dependents.  The idea during this recession is to rescue the government dependents by borrowing money.  So what happens next time?</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/11/menacing-krugman.html/comment-page-1#comment-191439</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 21:58:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=7345#comment-191439</guid>
		<description>you&#039;re an odd duck, sandre</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>you&#8217;re an odd duck, sandre</p>
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		<title>By: sandre</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/11/menacing-krugman.html/comment-page-1#comment-191438</link>
		<dc:creator>sandre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 21:56:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=7345#comment-191438</guid>
		<description>you are my guru. You can&#039;t offend me. You dazzled me with that quote - chock-full of stats. You are amazing; Your ability to talk out of both sides of your mouth is something I need to master. Keep the tips coming.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>you are my guru. You can&#8217;t offend me. You dazzled me with that quote &#8211; chock-full of stats. You are amazing; Your ability to talk out of both sides of your mouth is something I need to master. Keep the tips coming.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/11/menacing-krugman.html/comment-page-1#comment-191437</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 21:52:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=7345#comment-191437</guid>
		<description>Daniel: If by &quot;dollars&quot; Krugman means &quot;a variety of different assets,&quot; then his assertion that Chinese accumulation of &quot;dollars&quot; is siphoning demand from the rest of the world doesn&#039;t follow.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Daniel: If by &#8220;dollars&#8221; Krugman means &#8220;a variety of different assets,&#8221; then his assertion that Chinese accumulation of &#8220;dollars&#8221; is siphoning demand from the rest of the world doesn&#8217;t follow.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/11/menacing-krugman.html/comment-page-1#comment-191436</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 21:47:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=7345#comment-191436</guid>
		<description>it was a quote, you goof</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>it was a quote, you goof</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/11/menacing-krugman.html/comment-page-1#comment-191435</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 21:45:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=7345#comment-191435</guid>
		<description>OK, I thought my point was clear.  He never mentions what &quot;more&quot; is &quot;more&quot; of.  It&#039;s vague the first time he mentions it.  It&#039;s specific the second time he mentions it - he&#039;s talking about a slice of a static pie.  He&#039;s not saying people are &quot;poorer&quot; - they just get &quot;less&quot; of the pie.  Big difference.

It&#039;s like in your most recent post on Krugman - you can assume that Krugman doesn&#039;t know what he&#039;s talking about, or you can assume that &quot;dollars&quot; isn&#039;t actually currency, but short-hand for a variety of different assets.

I don&#039;t think anything I ever say is going to convince you not to go into reading Krugman thinking he doesn&#039;t know what he&#039;s talking about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, I thought my point was clear.  He never mentions what &#8220;more&#8221; is &#8220;more&#8221; of.  It&#8217;s vague the first time he mentions it.  It&#8217;s specific the second time he mentions it &#8211; he&#8217;s talking about a slice of a static pie.  He&#8217;s not saying people are &#8220;poorer&#8221; &#8211; they just get &#8220;less&#8221; of the pie.  Big difference.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s like in your most recent post on Krugman &#8211; you can assume that Krugman doesn&#8217;t know what he&#8217;s talking about, or you can assume that &#8220;dollars&#8221; isn&#8217;t actually currency, but short-hand for a variety of different assets.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think anything I ever say is going to convince you not to go into reading Krugman thinking he doesn&#8217;t know what he&#8217;s talking about.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/11/menacing-krugman.html/comment-page-1#comment-191434</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 21:44:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=7345#comment-191434</guid>
		<description>As for Krugman&#039;s assessment of Milton Friedman&#039;s monetary policy as being laced with &quot;dishonesty,&quot; I recommend this article by Anna Schwartz:&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.cato.org/pubs/journal/cj28n2/cj28n2-9.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;www.cato.org/pubs/journal/cj28n2/cj28n2-9.pdf&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As for Krugman&#8217;s assessment of Milton Friedman&#8217;s monetary policy as being laced with &#8220;dishonesty,&#8221; I recommend this article by Anna Schwartz:<a href="http://www.cato.org/pubs/journal/cj28n2/cj28n2-9.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.cato.org/pubs/journal/cj28n2/cj28n2-9.pdf</a></p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/11/menacing-krugman.html/comment-page-1#comment-191433</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 21:44:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=7345#comment-191433</guid>
		<description>You know, I&#039;ve been pretty healthy lately, but this morning I woke up with a headache.  It&#039;s the worst I&#039;ve felt since I tore my ACL several years ago.  I guess I should go in for knee surgery, eh?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You know, I&#8217;ve been pretty healthy lately, but this morning I woke up with a headache.  It&#8217;s the worst I&#8217;ve felt since I tore my ACL several years ago.  I guess I should go in for knee surgery, eh?</p>
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		<title>By: sandre</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/11/menacing-krugman.html/comment-page-1#comment-191432</link>
		<dc:creator>sandre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 21:43:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=7345#comment-191432</guid>
		<description>You dazzled me with statistics. I&#039;m taking copious notes here. I&#039;ll get to where you are in no time. I&#039;m starting to convince myself, which I think is the first step.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You dazzled me with statistics. I&#8217;m taking copious notes here. I&#8217;ll get to where you are in no time. I&#8217;m starting to convince myself, which I think is the first step.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/11/menacing-krugman.html/comment-page-1#comment-191431</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 21:42:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=7345#comment-191431</guid>
		<description>Daniel: This quotation from Krugman does not change what he said in the passage that I quote -- and the one that I quote is the offensive one.  Let me highlight for you the core of the passage that I quote: &quot;if the rich get more, that leaves less for everyone else.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Daniel: This quotation from Krugman does not change what he said in the passage that I quote &#8212; and the one that I quote is the offensive one.  Let me highlight for you the core of the passage that I quote: &#8220;if the rich get more, that leaves less for everyone else.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/11/menacing-krugman.html/comment-page-1#comment-191430</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 21:34:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=7345#comment-191430</guid>
		<description>&quot;First, the share of the rich in total income is no longer trivial. These days 1 percent of families receive about 16 percent of total pretax income, and have about 14 percent of after-tax income. That share has roughly doubled over the past 30 years, and is now about as large as the share of the bottom 40 percent of the population. That&#039;s a big shift of income to the top; as a matter of pure arithmetic, it must mean that the incomes of less well off families grew considerably more slowly than average income. And they did. Adjusting for inflation, average family income -- total income divided by the number of families -- grew 28 percent from 1979 to 1997. But median family income -- the income of a family in the middle of the distribution, a better indicator of how typical American families are doing -- grew only 10 percent. And the incomes of the bottom fifth of families actually fell slightly.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;First, the share of the rich in total income is no longer trivial. These days 1 percent of families receive about 16 percent of total pretax income, and have about 14 percent of after-tax income. That share has roughly doubled over the past 30 years, and is now about as large as the share of the bottom 40 percent of the population. That&#8217;s a big shift of income to the top; as a matter of pure arithmetic, it must mean that the incomes of less well off families grew considerably more slowly than average income. And they did. Adjusting for inflation, average family income &#8212; total income divided by the number of families &#8212; grew 28 percent from 1979 to 1997. But median family income &#8212; the income of a family in the middle of the distribution, a better indicator of how typical American families are doing &#8212; grew only 10 percent. And the incomes of the bottom fifth of families actually fell slightly.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/11/menacing-krugman.html/comment-page-1#comment-191427</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 21:31:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=7345#comment-191427</guid>
		<description>Daniel:

Here&#039;s the relevant passage (and surrounding context) from Krugman&#039;s NYT Magazine piece:

&quot;Still, you can understand why Novak assumed that we were No. 1. After all, we really are the richest major nation, with real G.D.P. per capita about 20 percent higher than Canada&#039;s. And it has been an article of faith in this country that a rising tide lifts all boats. Doesn&#039;t our high and rising national wealth translate into a high standard of living -- including good medical care -- for all Americans?

Well, no. Although America has higher per capita income than other advanced countries, it turns out that that&#039;s mainly because our rich are much richer. And here&#039;s a radical thought: if the rich get more, that leaves less for everyone else.

That statement -- which is simply a matter of arithmetic -- is guaranteed to bring accusations of &#039;&#039;class warfare.&#039;&#039; If the accuser gets more specific, he&#039;ll probably offer two reasons that it&#039;s foolish to make a fuss over the high incomes of a few people at the top of the income distribution. First, he&#039;ll tell you that what the elite get may look like a lot of money, but it&#039;s still a small share of the total -- that is, when all is said and done the rich aren&#039;t getting that big a piece of the pie. Second, he&#039;ll tell you that trying to do anything to reduce incomes at the top will hurt, not help, people further down the distribution, because attempts to redistribute income damage incentives.&quot;

I cannot accept your interpretation.  Krugman clearly is saying that, despite high per-capita GDP in the U.S., ordinary Americans are not really so well off because most of this wealth is going to the rich.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Daniel:</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s the relevant passage (and surrounding context) from Krugman&#8217;s NYT Magazine piece:</p>
<p>&#8220;Still, you can understand why Novak assumed that we were No. 1. After all, we really are the richest major nation, with real G.D.P. per capita about 20 percent higher than Canada&#8217;s. And it has been an article of faith in this country that a rising tide lifts all boats. Doesn&#8217;t our high and rising national wealth translate into a high standard of living &#8212; including good medical care &#8212; for all Americans?</p>
<p>Well, no. Although America has higher per capita income than other advanced countries, it turns out that that&#8217;s mainly because our rich are much richer. And here&#8217;s a radical thought: if the rich get more, that leaves less for everyone else.</p>
<p>That statement &#8212; which is simply a matter of arithmetic &#8212; is guaranteed to bring accusations of &#8221;class warfare.&#8221; If the accuser gets more specific, he&#8217;ll probably offer two reasons that it&#8217;s foolish to make a fuss over the high incomes of a few people at the top of the income distribution. First, he&#8217;ll tell you that what the elite get may look like a lot of money, but it&#8217;s still a small share of the total &#8212; that is, when all is said and done the rich aren&#8217;t getting that big a piece of the pie. Second, he&#8217;ll tell you that trying to do anything to reduce incomes at the top will hurt, not help, people further down the distribution, because attempts to redistribute income damage incentives.&#8221;</p>
<p>I cannot accept your interpretation.  Krugman clearly is saying that, despite high per-capita GDP in the U.S., ordinary Americans are not really so well off because most of this wealth is going to the rich.</p>
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		<title>By: sandre</title>
		<link>http://cafehayek.com/2009/11/menacing-krugman.html/comment-page-1#comment-191426</link>
		<dc:creator>sandre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 21:18:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cafehayek.com/?p=7345#comment-191426</guid>
		<description>Yes, you are always misunderstood as being wishy-washy. Thanks for the tip. I&#039;ll keep that in mind as I embark on the journey to become more like you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, you are always misunderstood as being wishy-washy. Thanks for the tip. I&#8217;ll keep that in mind as I embark on the journey to become more like you.</p>
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