Occupy Cluelessness

by Don Boudreaux on December 18, 2011

in Civil Society, Complexity & Emergence, Current Affairs

Here’s a letter to the Program Director of WTOP Radio:

Dear Sir or Madam:

During your 8pm hour yesterday, an earnest young man identified only as a “spokesman for Occupy Christmas” denounced “capitalism” for luring consumers to “waste money on junk to fill fake needs.”

This complaint is as shopworn as it is snooty.  And being so shopworn, it has been analyzed and addressed – and dismissed – countless times by serious scholars.  Here, for example, is economist Wilfred Beckerman writing in 1974: “even if it were possible to draw a dividing line between artificial and natural needs, what is so moral about natural needs and so immoral, or so undesirable, about artificial needs?  Would some peoples’ artificially induced ‘need’ to listen to music or to acquire knowledge be less desirable a component of welfare than some other peoples’ instinctive, natural and primitive instinct to rape women?”*

One of the great achievements of commercial society is its capacity to channel human effort into the creation and satisfaction of “fake needs” such as those for literature, science, and (yes) fashion, and away from the gratification of many destructive primal urges such as those for bloody revenge, male dominance over women, and the plundering of strangers.

Sincerely,
Donald J. Boudreaux
Professor of Economics
George Mason University
Fairfax, VA  22030

* Wilfred Beckerman, Two Cheers for the Affluent Society (New York: Saint Martin’s Press, 1974), p. 83.

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{ 161 comments }

Jon Murphy December 18, 2011 at 9:18 am

A good letter, Professor.

I have to admit, I find the premise behind the Occupy Christmas movement amusing. While OWS had a message that was noble in nature, Occupy Christmas is just plan arrogant. It suggests that the vast majority of us have become brainwashed little slaves of Big Business who are compelled to buy presents. But somehow, this select few enlightened patriarchs are immune to all this and we must rely upon them to guide us blind sheep. It doesn’t even consider that Christmas means something different for all of us: some of us see it as a holy day. Some of us see it as a time to spend with family. Some of us just like giving gifts!

That’s another thing I don’t understand. How can gift giving be a bad thing? That seems to me to be a very scrooge idea.

I like how the overrriding mantra of the Occupy Movements are “We believe in freedom for all who agree with us.”

Greg G December 18, 2011 at 9:23 am

I am shocked, shocked to find someone saying something stupid at a large mass protest! Round up the usual suspects.

Jon Murphy December 18, 2011 at 9:45 am

The guy said he spoke for the movement. But I am glad we can agree it was stupid. Unless you were reacting to Don saying it was stupid?

Either way, the point remains. Even if this guy only speaks for himself, then the lesson in this letter is addressed solely to him.

Greg G December 18, 2011 at 10:19 am

Just saying you are shooting fish in a barrel here Jon. You could easily do the same thing at any Tea Party protest. But you probably won’t.

Don Boudreaux December 18, 2011 at 10:25 am

Greg G: This complaint – admittedly mouthed here by a clueless protester – is one that is quite commonly leveled by credentialed folk against capitalism; e.g., Veblen, J.K. Galbraith, and, today, Cornell’s Robert Frank.

muirge0 December 18, 2011 at 10:35 am

Galbraith nor Frank are/were against capitalism. They are against winner take all Casino capitalism that YOU support. What you believe and what you support…market freedom and liberty is simply the propaganda tool of the casino owners. The real world offers no support or haven for what you believe. Real supporters of capitalism support a structured pragmatic approach and history has already proved that to be the best way. It has likewise shown that pushes towards what you libertarians believe always result in the world we now see around. There are no libertarians at the top of a libertarian economy….EVER.

Jon Murphy December 18, 2011 at 10:39 am

Actually, Greg, I have complained about the Tea Party. I don’t think they have it right, either. Generally speaking, I don’t like mass protests. You get herd mentality, people who try to co-opt the movement for their own goals and just outright trouble makers.

Majuscule December 18, 2011 at 11:07 am

Muirge0 says “It has likewise shown that pushes towards what you libertarians believe always result in the world we now see around.”

What planet does this guy live on? We’ve all been pounding our heads against the wall trying to show him that the “world we now see around” is the direct result of massive governmental interference in the economy. I’d like to know what exactly has tipped the scales from the top-down command-and-control economy favored by both political parties to the wild west that he claims we now live in.

The free market economy we advocate has not been in effect for over 100 years. Decade after decade of sludge emanating from DC is the root cause of every one of today’s economic woes.

Methinks1776 December 18, 2011 at 1:23 pm

..”the product the company is producing is obsolete” Should read BECOMES obsolete.

Sam Grove December 18, 2011 at 4:06 pm

Media coverage of the Tea Party protests vs coverage of the OWS protests reveals where media sympathies lie.

brotio December 20, 2011 at 12:34 am

I have opened a xanga account and will forward our hosts postings there and allow comments there

http://cafe-hayek-comments.xanga.com/

I think that you will have to create a xanga account in order to comment. If this is true, it will prevent the name-hijacking that our Leftist, idiot trolls are so fond of. I do not intend to forbid comments because of name-calling, and will not forbid Yasafi, Gil, DK, GregG, or any of the other non-trolls from commenting. I will reserve the right to remove comments that violate the obscenity requirements our hosts have asked of us here.

Thanks all, and I hope this will allow us to continue our dialogues until our hosts decide how comments will be handled here.

muirge0 December 18, 2011 at 10:40 am

Saying you are against capitalism is only AS STUPID as saying you are for unregulated capitalism. The degree of stupidity is exactly equal. In fact, maybe the communist and the socialist are being slightly less stupid in that their ideas actually exist in society poor as the results may be. The libertarian society and economy exist no where as it quickly devolves to revolution. But it is non-existent in spite of its hoard of condescending true believers…. it’s just one more church.

Methinks1776 December 18, 2011 at 10:47 am

There is no such thing as unregulated capitalism. Consumers regulate and they are the best regulators. The market imposes the harshest discipline.

ettubloge December 18, 2011 at 12:16 pm

The consumers are led by the nose by the rapacious GSEs, Congress,ratings agencies and others outside of the free market. Then liars like this guy blame capitalism

Greg G December 18, 2011 at 12:26 pm

“The market imposes the harshest discipline.”

I understand it was so harsh with Dick Fuld that he was left with a mere half billion or so.

Nikolai Luzhin.Eastern Promises December 18, 2011 at 12:41 pm

those few of us here who believe in democracy do such because we know the public knows something is wrong (well before it knows why something is wrong)

below you write, “THEY are the Thomas Paines of our day and you are their confirmed critics. You do not even have solutions to our problems THEY are going to solve them”

a little strong, but people are observing, thinking, and re-orienting. I especially like Stiglitz’s piece in Vanity Fair.

He may not put the puzzle together, but he understands that current theories are not enough.

My guess remains that we are going to have a very bad experiment in austersity in 2013, if Europe makes it through 2012. If not, the wheels will come off before.

I cannot see how Europe can make another year. It is never talked about here, but we sold them so many billions in bad bonds that I don’t know how their banks can ever recover, when you add the debt of the South.

Martin Wolf has been calling for money drops (vouchers that have to be spent and cannot be saved) for months.

Krugman and DeLong are making the same bet.

If this sucker goes down, Don and Russ will be hunted down and their heads will be on Pikes. Revolutions turn out that way. Order is not an emergent property of a free mob.

Strength, Honor, Peace, and Prosperity

NL

Methinks1776 December 18, 2011 at 1:00 pm

I understand it was so harsh with Dick Fuld that he was left with a mere half billion or so.

You’re upset because Dick Fuld only lost half a billion and, more importantly, his stellar reputation (I thoroughly enjoyed working for Fuld – he was a great boss, a well-respected and good man) with the Lehman collapse? Shall we cry and beat our chests if CEOs aren’t completely impoverished if they make a mistake – even one catastrophic mistake that leads to the demise of the company?

By your logic, if one of my employees makes a mistake which costs me some money, then I should strip him of everything he’s earned up to that point in his life weather he earned it in my employ or not. Whether he earned it from other strategies that worked well or not. Wonderful.

For someone who spent his life in retail, you understand surprisingly little about markets and incentives. You’ll stop at nothing to get your pound of flesh.

steve December 18, 2011 at 1:04 pm

I understand that LLCs protect personal earnings, but given the magnitude of losses incurred, why shouldnt Fuld lose everything, even if you think he was a great guy? Shouldnt we at least try to align incentives?

Steve

Methinks1776 December 18, 2011 at 1:22 pm

Because, Steve, when you invest in a company you understand that the people running that company are imperfect. In other words, you understand that you’re taking a risk of losing all or part of your investment.

What if consumer tastes change or the product the company is producing is obsolete? The company goes bankrupt and the CEO must stripped of everything because you lost a portion of your wealth gambling on the success of this company?

People lose on gambles all the time. Why should the CEO you hire to make decisions in your stead lose everything if a gamble doesn’t pay out and you, the investor, should be limited to the amount you invested?

The corporate veil you’re referring to is not impenetrable. If the CEO committed fraud or some other illegal act in pursuit of this gamble, then he may indeed be sued and he may lose everything that way. There’s no evidence that Dick Fuld committed a crime. And simply losing money is not a crime.

The government deciding to rob you and me to make people whole on their losing gamble is, IMO, a crime. Mercifully, that didn’t happen with Lehman.

Methinks1776 December 18, 2011 at 1:24 pm

.”the product the company is producing is obsolete” Should read BECOMES obsolete.

vikingvista December 18, 2011 at 3:22 pm

Greg G,

I say we locate and round up all the executives and employees of defunct typewriter companies, and confiscate all of their past earnings as punishment for their obvious failures. That goes for any failed company. After all, we don’t want to incentivise failure, do we?

Sam Grove December 18, 2011 at 4:08 pm

Greg G,

IBM was once the biggest corporation in the world, as was at another time GM.

Without access to political power, corporations must work hard to gain and retain market share.

muirge0 December 18, 2011 at 6:01 pm

“Consumers regulate and they are the best regulators.” methinks

Yeah consumers did a great jobs regulating wages, debt, interest rates,lobbying, capital requirements, fraud, conflicts of interest, subprime loans, bond and stock rating, corporate boards and complex financial transactions,…public and private debt…. sovereign debt…. Oh they do a great job methinks. Same for corporations…. they did great responding to the needs of their share holders and to the needs of society with CEO pay increases 3 to 4 fold of GDP. Oh yeah.. deregulation solves everything. And Wall Street great job allocating resources and minimizing risk…way to go!!!

Greg Webb December 18, 2011 at 2:11 pm

Yeah, Jon! You have to be fair. If you criticize an OWS idiot, you have to criticize a Tea Party idiot. Of course, Greg Government does live by the rule that he advocates. But you have to be nonpartisan in your comments, while Greg Government continues to be a big-government partisan in all his comments on a libertarian blog at that. LOL! Hypocrisy, thy name be Greg Government.

Greg G December 18, 2011 at 2:56 pm

Methinks

I don’t know how much Dick Fuld should have lost for blowing up his company and a good chunk of the economy with it. If you reread my comment, you will see I didn’t offer an opinion on that.

What I do know is that, only on Wall Street, could someone call his walking away with a half billion “the harshest discipline” and keep a straight face.

Methinks1776 December 18, 2011 at 2:59 pm

Greg G, you are a shining example of unbounded and irreparable ignorance.

vikingvista December 18, 2011 at 3:25 pm

When a company goes bancrupt and it’s investors lose a lot of money, that IS pretty harsh. Considerably harsher than when a government extorts the wealth of uninvolved citizens to bail them out. And it’s a good lesson to boot.

Greg G December 18, 2011 at 4:02 pm

Fuld walked away from the Lehman debacle in a lot better shape than his investors and employees despite the fact that he had most of the responsibility for blowing the company up. And yes, Methinks, there was the awful harshness of having that tarnish his reputation.

Methinks1776 December 18, 2011 at 4:20 pm

How do you know what kind of shape his investors were in? Did you go to each investor and ask them how much of their portfolio was invested in Lehman?

Fuld lost half his wealth – the half invested in Lehman. If he’d invested all of it in Lehman, he would have lost everything. He lost exactly as much as he should have. You’re just jealous that he’s smarter, more productive and wealthier than you.

Now, what’s interesting is that equity investors always want the CEO to take more risk. They’re the beneficiaries of the upside of that risk and they are well able to hedge the downside (buy puts, diversify, reduce the size of the position, etc.). If Fuld had been conservative and reduced his exposure to the the same toxic crap everyone else was loading up on, shareholders would have called for his head and demanded a replacement. Then, you’d be asking for some other guy’s head on a plate – the guy who would have replaced Fuld to do the shareholders’ bidding.

I realize scapegoats are comforting for idiots, but it’s still just putrid scapegoating. And I see you’ve decided to pick on the one CEO that actually lost in 2008. Dick Blankdick and Stan O’Neil as just two examples lost nothing. They lost nothing at all because they were bailed out by us. You can be as jealous of Fuld as you want (you can’t help it, I know), but these guys are the real thieves.

Greg G December 18, 2011 at 4:28 pm

vv
I don’t know where you got the idea that I was advocating stripping people of past income. I was simply objecting to the idea that walking away with half a billion for doing an appalling job was “harsh.” But I guess there is no such thing as a market failure around here.

Sam
I have no idea where you got the idea that I might not know that companies have to work hard to gain and retain market share but I’d sure like to know.

Methinks1776 December 18, 2011 at 4:28 pm

There I go with the Freudian slips again. That should be Lloyd Blankfein, of course.

Methinks1776 December 18, 2011 at 4:36 pm

I don’t know where you got the idea that I was advocating stripping people of past income. I was simply objecting to the idea that walking away with half a billion for doing an appalling job was “harsh.”

Why am I not surprised that you were ready to go the pitchfork and torch route before you bothered to get a hint of a clue?

Dick Fuld had a long and storied career as a trader at Lehman long before he became CEO. He’s worked for Lehman since 1969 and only became CEO in 1994 – long before the alphabet soup of toxic ABSs became all the rage. You’re bitching about what he made over his career, so you’re doing exactly what Viking accuses you of.

Meanwhile….why no bitching about what our benighted public servants get away with?

Greg G December 18, 2011 at 4:41 pm

Methinks

Your certainty that I am jealous of Fuld reveals a lot more about you than me. I’m glad you could take a break from lecturing on the pretense of knowledge for that insight. There is no way I would want to be a part of that Wall Street rat race for any amount of money. I realize you can’t imagine such a thing but not everyone has the same priorities and goals as you. For some of us there is such a thing as enough.

I have nothing good to say about the other CEO’s you mentioned. I chose the example of Fuld deliberately because this was a case of things being handled the closest to the way you advocate. The let him take all the risk he wanted to take and then they let him fail.

And by the way, it was not only people directly involved with Lehman that were hurt by the fallout.

Methinks1776 December 18, 2011 at 4:48 pm

No, clueless. Nobody was hurt because Lehman was allowed to fail. Creditors got new information – they were taking too much risk. What, you think that Lehman was the only company to load itself up with shit assets?

Now, creditors have certainty paid for by you. Isn’t that charming? They’ll keep financing huge risks and you and your kids will keep paying and paying (well, maybe not your trial lawyer son who will benefit from threatening people). The father of a trial lawyer has some balls passing judgement on Wall Street.

You’re certainly not jealous of the work Fuld did in his 40 years at Lehman. You’re clearly only jealous of the reward – seeing as you’re so obsessed with his $500MM.

vikingvista December 18, 2011 at 5:32 pm

Greg G,

What makes you think the half billion, or whatever it was, was for doing an appalling job? And furthermore, why do you think investor losses are not a harsh punishment? The destruction part of creative destruction is not market failure, it is market success.

muirge0 December 18, 2011 at 6:06 pm

“Now, what’s interesting is that equity investors always want the CEO to take more risk. They’re the beneficiaries of the upside of that risk and they are well able to hedge the downside (buy puts, diversify, reduce the size of the position, etc.). If Fuld had been conservative and reduced his exposure to the the same toxic crap everyone else was loading up on, shareholders would have called for his head and demanded a replacement. Then, you’d be asking for some other guy’s head on a plate – the guy who would have replaced Fuld to do the shareholders’ bidding.”

Here methinks explains inadvertently why there needs to be rules. Like Thomas Frank explains with no rules hockey players will not disadvantage themselves by wearing helmets even though they all agree it would be smarter if everyone did and they want there to be such a rule. A helmet rule improves the game, makes it safer and does not disadvantage anyone person unequally.

Arceb Ulned December 19, 2011 at 6:07 pm

Greg G

Greg you need to apply context. His job title is within the executive rank and file; if it helps think of it like Football drafting. Investors look at their executives capacity and history, in his case he will be scarred and on top of that his investments took a major hit as well.

The big thing about the Lehman issue has nothing to do with what he took home after the smoke cleared, it was the level of insider trading that was going on and that has nothing to do with Fuld. There are two words used to describe your method of investigation and cognition: Witch Hunt.

GAAPrulesIFRSdrools December 18, 2011 at 12:47 pm

While OWS had a message that was noble in nature

The only problem is, maybe somebody within OWS had a noble message, but OWS is largely a confederation of inchoate and unrelated grievances that contains way to much garbage like antisemitism.

Greg G December 18, 2011 at 5:14 pm

Methinks

Oh great. Now you are outraged about my “trial lawyer son who will benefit from threatening people.” Your arrogance knows no bounds. For your information, all his trials have been in the DA’s office where he specializes in prosecuting domestic violence.

Yes there was indeed lots of valuable new information for investors and everyone else to come out of the crash. Now the rest of us know how little you Wall Street wizards really understand what you are doing and how little value you really add.

It is laughable how unable you are to believe that someone could be satisfied with the amount of money they have. But it is sad for you. No matter how much you make it will never be enough. You will remain this angry and dissatisfied no matter how much you make.

Methinks1776 December 18, 2011 at 5:32 pm

Don’t kid yourself, Pops. You’re as clueless and jealous as ever.

Greg G December 18, 2011 at 6:06 pm

Methinks

And by the way, your hero Fuld wanted and expected a bailout like everyone else. He just didn’t get it.

Methinks1776 December 18, 2011 at 6:19 pm

He did – and if you were a creditor or an investor, that’s what you’d want him to do. Get a bailout. I can’t fault him for wanting one, for agitating for one. You were complaining about how poorly his investors made out, weren’t you? Make up your mind.

He didn’t get it.

I loved Lehman. Of the firms I worked for during my time at Wall Street I-banks, it was my favourite next to Salomon Brothers. Some of my former team was still there during the collapse – many years after I left. I very much liked Fuld as well. Yet, I was delighted when Lehman was allowed to fail. That’s as it should be.

As it should have been for all the others. That’s how capitalism works.

muirge0 December 18, 2011 at 6:23 pm

It’s sad isn’t Greg. It’s exactly this sort of illness of thought that is bringing down our society. Humans are very prone to addiction and the behavior we see on Wall Street and in corporate boards is no different but far more destructive.

Methinks1776 December 18, 2011 at 6:24 pm

There’s a lesson in there for you to not learn, Greg G.

Wanting a bailout, begging for a bailout, crying for a bailout does not get you one. The only way for a bailout to happen is for our public servants to spring into action, holding a gun to our heads.

Greg G December 18, 2011 at 6:32 pm

Methinks

I understand your point that Fuld felt he owed it to his shareholders and creditors to try for a bailout. I’m sure that’s true.

My point is that, everything I have read says that he didn’t just advocate for it. He was genuinely and sincerely outraged that he didn’t get it. That was his understanding of how capitalism should work. Are you really unable to see the irony in a guy like that being one of your heroes?

Methinks1776 December 18, 2011 at 6:47 pm

Oh no. Fuld understood how capitalism worked. He was outraged because his was the ONLY bank that wasn’t bailed out. Now, if you were the only one who wasn’t bailed out, I’ll bet you’d be mighty pissed off.

Still, outrage won’t get his hand into my pocket, so he can indulge in whatever feelings he wants to.

BTW, having respect for someone isn’t hero worship and it isn’t even agreement with every one of the respected person’s decisions. But, you keep rocking that pejorative if it soothes to believe it’s getting to me. I don’t mind.

Greg G December 19, 2011 at 7:57 am

Methinks

“Oh no. Fuld understood how capitalism worked. He was outraged because his was the ONLY bank that wasn’t bailed out. ”

Except that his outrage was expressed before everyone else was bailed out. It was not at all clear that Citi and Goldman would be bailed out when Fuld started crying. Yes, Bear had been bailed out first, but at the time Lehman was let go, there was a hope and a claim (which proved false) that that was the end of the bailouts.

So it was NOT clear that only Lehman would be allowed to fail when Fuld expressed his views on the matter. Events that happened LATER could not have caused his reaction.

Methinks1776 December 19, 2011 at 8:16 am

Two things:

First, you have an incredible ability to cling to minutia like a panda once you’ve lost the argument. I don’t care how Fuld feels about anything. I’ll repeat myself: his feelings get him neither into my wallet nor yours. So, who cares how he might feel about anything?

Second, where is the evidence that he was so outraged that he wasn’t bailed out before Lehman filed for Chapter 11? Where you privy to the meetings? Were you there? Or are you just getting your information from Hollywood movies again, Greg G?

Greg G December 19, 2011 at 10:10 am

Methinks

Two things right back at you:

How Fuld felt about being bailed out has everything to do with his understanding of how capitalism works. And that was the point I raised in response to you praising his understanding of how capitalism works.

You suggest that I am getting my information from “Hollywood movies again.” In fact I have seen no Hollywood movies on the topic. I have read Roger Lowenstein’s and Andrew Ross Sorkin’s very detailed and well documented books on the topic though. It is always entertaining when you imagine up things about my life that you know nothing about.

Methinks1776 December 19, 2011 at 10:31 am

Well, if you read it in a book, then it must be true and it must be the way one “feels about capitalism”, Greg G. You’ve started chasing your tail again, dear. I’m just going to leave you to it.

Greg G December 20, 2011 at 7:35 am

OK then. So you learned about capitalism from Dick Fuld. That explains a lot. And the half billion or so he walked away with was “exactly” the right amount.

Because in Social Darwinism, the financial scoreboard is never wrong.

W.E. Heasley December 18, 2011 at 9:58 am

……“spokesman for Occupy Christmas” denounced “capitalism” for luring consumers to “waste money on junk to fill fake needs.”

Ah, the third party interventionist making a proclamation. How very nice!

The third party interventionist, armed with notional proclamations, seeks an “entry point” meaning the entry point for the market intervention argument. Christmas, in this particular case, being the entry point. Paradoxically, intervention-distortion advocates merely create an environment that magnifies serially uncorrelated errors. That “imperfection” is the entry point and “perfection” is the argument…. when in fact perfection become additional imperfection.

The “spokesman” also must remember that “capitalism” is a term created by detractors of freedom and free markets. Stated alternatively, those that dislike freedom and free markets coined the term “capitalism”. Hence the “spokesman” is advocating that being free to choose creates “waste” whereas “waste” would not occur if the freedom to choose was removed. Hmmmm.

Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. – Milton Freidman

dsylexic December 18, 2011 at 10:04 am

so,who wrote the best rebuttal to JK Galbraith,Don?
how do these fellow call themselves economists

muirge0 December 18, 2011 at 10:43 am

Have you read the Affluent Society?

dsylexic December 19, 2011 at 1:33 am

yes,it is rubbish nostalgie de la boue

muirge0 December 18, 2011 at 10:29 am

You can pick out plenty of stupidity in the Occupy movement. The big picture is that as demeaning as you might like to be towards them THEY GET IT. You say you complain and are against cronyism, rent-seeking and bought politicians… that’s what they are against. They are the people who, like in 1776 had plenty of wealthy snooty people who even called them terrorist, who sided with those that beat and shot them. But they are the people who will effect positive change not those sitting comfortably at their desk writing endless letters to editors. THEY are the Thomas Paines of our day and you are their confirmed critics. You do not even have no solutions to our problems THEY are going to solve them. They ain’t going nowheres.

Greg Webb December 18, 2011 at 2:13 pm

LOL, George! There is plenty of stupidity in your comments. No need to get to the OWS idiots.

muirge0 December 18, 2011 at 6:12 pm

Whatever Greg… I’ll put you down as being on the wrong side of history. Get back with you in 20 years. The solutions will not be libertarian… and the republicans…. I watched their debate the other day and it appears they, if elected, will fix everything by invading Iran…. What a clown fest that was…

Greg Webb December 19, 2011 at 4:39 pm

LOL, George! To date, you have not made one persuasive, logical argument supported by verifiable, objective evidence since I met you. You once said the OWS would change the world. You were wrong then as you always are.

vidyohs December 18, 2011 at 10:38 am

Was channeling my ancestor Og last night and my wife told me he chatted about the occupy movements. Said, “that if those fools really want to know about needs and wants, come spend a vacation with me here in the cave. Spoiled puppies, don’t know shit about how it is to live like me and Ogina. Hell, we’ll take their cast-offs and live like royalty.”

I saw men fight over our trash when I was in Africa, cut and stab each other to be first to pick through it. Take that punk spokesman and put him into that situation and he wouldn’t last 2 minutes. Neither would I, that is why I appreciate the opportunity I have here, restricted as it may be.

muirge0 December 18, 2011 at 10:42 am

OK vidyohs so we’ll put you down as siding with the political class… or should we just call you all Tory’s?

vidyohs December 18, 2011 at 11:03 am

muirduck, my little quack quack,

LOL

You are not man enough to pick me up physically, so you can’t put me down. And, you’re man enough intellectually to pick up on what I say, so speaking of putting me down there in any manner is facetious.

Go have another drink.

Greg Webb December 18, 2011 at 2:14 pm

Not a drink, Vid. Self administered thorazine.

Patriotic American December 18, 2011 at 10:58 am

Don Boudreaux Discovers The True Meaning Of Christmas…shopping.

Methinks1776 December 18, 2011 at 11:03 am

No, dear. The true meaning of Christmas is drinking, eating and carrying on. The church has been trying to change the meaning of Christmas for centuries. Don’t you know Jesus wasn’t born on the 25th of December?

jjoxman December 18, 2011 at 11:10 am

You know, that’s a good point, re: the Catholic church & corrupting pagan holidays.

I for one am in favor of celebrating the solstice separately. More feast days = more happy times!

Methinks1776 December 18, 2011 at 3:08 pm

Perfectly lovely Pagan holidays were destroyed by the guilting influence of the Catholic Church! It’s an outrage.

I converted to Holidarianism long ago. That is, if you’ve got a holiday, I’m there to celebrate it.

Jon Murphy December 18, 2011 at 3:16 pm

Today is Ty Cobb’s birthday. Let’s celebrate!

Methinks1776 December 18, 2011 at 3:20 pm

Pour me a drink!

vikingvista December 18, 2011 at 3:27 pm

I particularly like the old pagan tradition of making the town fool king for a day. Oh wait, that tradition has been extended to 365 days. My mistake.

Troll Watch December 18, 2011 at 12:07 pm

There is no “real meaning” to Xmas. Xmas is meaningless commercialism. The religiosity of Xmas is completely fake and often hypocritical. The late Chistopher Hitchens knew that much. I’m surprised that he didn’t seek to change his first name like this dude in Israel: http://news.yahoo.com/israeli-man-changes-name-mark-zuckerberg-legal-fight-193405859.html

GAAPrulesIFRSdrools December 18, 2011 at 1:14 pm

I found the religion of Christopher Hitchens to be fake and often hypocritical.

Invisible Backhand December 18, 2011 at 12:32 pm

No, dear. The true meaning of Christmas is drinking, eating and carrying on.

You can take the communist out of Russia, but you can’t take the atheist out of the communist.

Greg Webb December 18, 2011 at 1:47 pm

But, you can take a Russian out of a communist country and she will make herself a productive and intelligent member of a capitalist society, much unlike a home-grown communist like Irritable Bowel.

Marcus December 18, 2011 at 12:33 pm

Well put.

Jon Murphy December 18, 2011 at 12:35 pm

Re Christmas and the CHurch

It made sense for the Church to pick December 25th for their 2nd most holy celebration. If you are a somewhat fledgling church trying to get your message to the unbelievers, why not move your 2nd biggest holiday to their major celebration?

The actual date doesn’t matter. It’s a celebration of the birth of the Messiah.

Christmas isn’t about the shopping. You’re a cynical fool to think otherwise. Even if you’re an atheist you’d understand this. Christmas is about family and friends. It’s about being with those you love. No one wants to be alone on Christmas.

Christmas is a time of celebration and a time for memories.

Look, I’m sorry some people find giving presents to loved ones is distasteful. But that is a decision for THEM to make for THEMSELVES.

Greg Webb December 18, 2011 at 12:48 pm

“Christmas is about family and friends. It’s about being with those you love. No one wants to be alone on Christmas.”

I want to be far away from Christian true believers all year long. How dare you tell me what I want on a particular day of the year. You are an arrogant, condescending piece of work.

GAAPrulesIFRSdrools December 18, 2011 at 1:17 pm

I want to be far away from Christian true believers all year long.

What’s stopping you?

I hear Saudi Arabia is nice and warm this time of year.

You could emigrate.

Greg Webb December 18, 2011 at 1:52 pm

LOL! Pretender, don’t worry, with your big-government dogma and silly, hateful attitude, you should be able to enjoy your solitude all year long. And, like all those who advocate big-govenment, you should emigrate to Saudi Arabia or China should that you can actually experience that which you advocate.

Methinks1776 December 18, 2011 at 3:06 pm

No, you can’t. You can’t even get a visitor’s visa into the kingdom unless you’re on Hajj. You have to be Muslim to get in. They don’t allow tourism or immigration (except under certain very limited circumstances).

I know you’re kidding, but this is part of the reason Saudi Arabia is so evolved that 25% of the population believes in magic.

GAAPrulesIFRSdrools December 18, 2011 at 1:05 pm

Well said Jon. I thought the eating drinking and carrying on is more a hallmark of New Year’s.

Methinks1776 December 18, 2011 at 1:08 pm

I’m as resistant to you dictating what Christmas Is About as I am to Patriotic Fool divining the Meaning of Christmas.

In my church (Russian Orthodox), Christmas Is About a quiet, barely observed day on January 7th. It’s strictly a quiet, religious day.

December 25th Is About whatever the hell people want it to be – and if that’s showering each other with the knick-knacks that make life fun, well then….let them have at it! For me, it’s a day off! I don’t get too many of those.

Jon Murphy December 18, 2011 at 1:09 pm

“December 25th Is About whatever the hell people want it to be”

I agree methinks.

GAAPrulesIFRSdrools December 18, 2011 at 1:28 pm

I’m as resistant to you dictating what Christmas Is About as I am to Patriotic Fool divining the Meaning of Christmas.

Actually, you did just that

“The true meaning of Christmas is drinking, eating and carrying on. The church has been trying to change the meaning of Christmas for centuries.”

Greg Webb December 18, 2011 at 2:20 pm

Well, to each his own. I will celebrate Christmas with gifts, food, fun activities with friends, and prayer. Merry Christmas to all. Even our resident big-government advocates and trolls. My God bless you all.

Methinks1776 December 18, 2011 at 3:02 pm

Ha, GAAP! You’re right.

I meant that the traditions of that day are largely taken from the pagan holiday and that holiday was a time for revelry.

Methinks1776 December 18, 2011 at 1:09 pm

It made sense for the Church to pick December 25th for their 2nd most holy celebration. If you are a somewhat fledgling church trying to get your message to the unbelievers, why not move your 2nd biggest holiday to their major celebration?

Sorry, but that’s mangled history. The church was trying to control behaviour when it co-opted the pagan holiday. I don’t have a personal problem with that, but let’s get real.

Jon Murphy December 18, 2011 at 1:13 pm

Well, that’s my point. They wanted to convert the pagans, so they took over their biggest holiday and said “hey, look, you celebrate when we do! You must be just like us!”

Note the phrasing on that makes it sound as though the pagans are wrong. I did that on purpose as it was clearly the Church’s intention.

GAAPrulesIFRSdrools December 18, 2011 at 4:39 pm

I meant that the traditions of that day are largely taken from the pagan holiday and that holiday was a time for revelry.

In most Western Churches, the celebration is encouraged to be reverent and reflective,and to remember the shopping and feasting is inessential and to not worry to much about the reverie. Sure, it’s excessive at times-but I’d it than the other extreme-the rigid puritanism that insists that authentic religiosity must be joyless and austere to be sincere and authentic.

I like to remember that the wedding @ Cana was provided with wine, not Perrier.

GAAPrulesIFRSdrools December 18, 2011 at 4:40 pm

Errata:

. Sure, it’s excessive at times-but I’d RATHER it than the other extreme-the rigid puritanism that insists that authentic religiosity must be joyless and austere to be sincere and authentic.

anthonyl December 18, 2011 at 8:09 pm

The church is just like any government. They take the achievements of free individuals as their own.

I Miss Nixon December 18, 2011 at 4:00 pm

You’re upset because Dick Fuld only lost half a billion and, more importantly, his stellar reputation (I thoroughly enjoyed working for Fuld – he was a great boss, a well-respected and good man) with the Lehman collapse? Shall we cry and beat our chests if CEOs aren’t completely impoverished if they make a mistake – even one catastrophic mistake that leads to the demise of the company?

And now we know that Methinks1776 is a troll for Lehman Brothers.

What high farce

muirge0 December 18, 2011 at 6:33 pm

Put me down as a Pagen. I love celebrations tied to the reality of nature and her seasons. I’m trying to get my kids to look into Pagenism by giving them regular solstice and equinox allowance bonuses. I’ve prayed in plenty of churches but never felt more in the presence of whatever our creator is then when I’m out in pristine nature. Religion is the dangerous path to God promoted by more people wanting to control others. Spirituality is finding god on your own terms and in nature and the world all around us.

“Climb the mountains and get their good tidings. Nature’s peace will flow into you as sunshine flows into trees. The winds will blow their own freshness into you, and the storms their energy, while cares will drop away from you like the leaves of Autumn.”
― John Muir

OWS December 18, 2011 at 6:44 pm

You sometime gentle and sometimes feisty spirit will be missed around here. You were a wise counterpoint to the extreme libertarian view. You were indeed a constant breath of fresh air. Thank you for all the wisdom that you shared with us at no cost. Your generosity was always greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Methinks1776 December 18, 2011 at 6:51 pm

At least Muirdiot remembered to remove his avatar this time :)

Greg G December 18, 2011 at 7:03 pm

Nah. Grammer and punctuation are way too good. That’s IB.

Methinks1776 December 18, 2011 at 7:15 pm

hmmm…..could be.

Tor Munkov December 21, 2011 at 12:04 pm

You are so put. Welcome Pagan. Put me down as a Lothario, am I also welcome to be your neighbor?

Sam Grove December 18, 2011 at 4:15 pm

How is it that you can type words and construct sentences, yet glean only the most superficial interpretation of Don’s point?

Charlie December 18, 2011 at 11:42 am

Sounds like he’s read “The Deadweight Loss of Christmas.”

http://www.jstor.org/pss/2117564

Troll Watch December 18, 2011 at 12:00 pm

This is another trollish post by the captain of a sinking, stinking capitalist ship, D. Boudreaux. That old dude you quote who equates shameless commercialism, and a holiday, Christmas, based on a phoney religion (yes, I know; all religions are phoney.) with the rape of women truly disgusts. Clearly, he is sexist, too, because men (and children) are also raped. I won’t dignify this disgusting analogy by speaking about the brainwashing-mass-media-induced commercialization, and marketing of “black Friday,” or “white xmas.” Get your flat screen TV right here, right now! so we can brainwash you some more.

What I will object to here is my neighbor’s sign affixed to his door. It reads:
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

What a bunch of rubbish. “Unto us” Who talks that way anymore? My neighbors are uncultured, uneducated, un-neighborly, unfriendly beasts. Christmas is garbage, but charity and kindness will never go out of style.

The Great CornTrollio December 18, 2011 at 1:08 pm

You need TP for your bunghole.

vikingvista December 18, 2011 at 3:32 pm

Are you threatening me?

khodge December 18, 2011 at 1:48 pm

Troll:
Interesting and telling that you object to your neighbor making a peaceful statement on his private property.

Greg Webb December 18, 2011 at 1:56 pm

khodge, that is what all big-government advocates do. Then, they pretend that they are for democracy while continuing to push for rule by an elite group of high-priests, whether bureaucrats or Supreme Court Justices.

Majuscule December 18, 2011 at 2:10 pm

It’s not all that surprising. He’s a sociopath who believes that death should befall anyone who disagrees with him. That’s the exact opposite of charity and kindness.

Greg Webb December 18, 2011 at 2:22 pm

Yep. His parents need to admit him to a mental institute.

Troll Watch December 18, 2011 at 4:20 pm

You need to step on a land mine.

http://www.landmines.org/Page.aspx?pid=374

Greg Webb December 19, 2011 at 12:57 am

LOL! But, I won’t. Please let the nurses know that you have access to a computer and that you need another dose of your meds.

Troll Watch December 18, 2011 at 4:18 pm

You destroy the planet, you stinking psychopath, you deserve not just an ordinary death but a painful one. Troll.

Greg Webb December 19, 2011 at 12:56 am

Troll, nice silly personal attack. And, evidence to support your baseless accusations? Of course not!

Invisible Backhand December 18, 2011 at 12:29 pm

While we are celebrating “fake needs”, in this season of giving, I beg everyone to dig deep and donate to Russ Roberts, so he can keep dining with friends at the Four Seasons hotel.

http://i.imgur.com/B3TtH.png

GAAPrulesIFRSdrools December 18, 2011 at 1:08 pm

Jealous?

khodge December 18, 2011 at 1:51 pm

So arrogant.
Is it beyond your comprehension that the employees of Four Seasons hotel benefit from people availing themselves of the employees’ services? Is it your position that these people (the employees) would be better off if they were unemployed and living off government welfare?

Tom McCarthy December 18, 2011 at 1:59 pm

IB, I will give to Russ and you can give to the US Treasury. Fool.

Majuscule December 18, 2011 at 2:24 pm

It’s amusing how enraged people like Irritable Bowel become at the audacity of people to spend money on expensive goods and services. In their rage and fury, they lose sight of the fact that these goods and services are often provided by those in the middle class.

Remember the “yacht tax” from 1990 pushed through Congress by Ted Kennedy? A 10% excise tax was levied on the purchase of boats costing more than $100,000. Instead of punishing the diabolical evil rich people who buy yachts, new yacht sales plummeted. The direct result was thousands of layoffs of middle class people who…wait for it…build yachts.

Jon Murphy December 18, 2011 at 2:27 pm

It really is odd. It’s amazing how these people fail to see the connection between productivity and jobs.

Invisible Backhand December 18, 2011 at 2:55 pm

Whatya gonna do. It’s amazing how these people fail to see they’re not the pimp, they’re the pussy.

anthonyl December 18, 2011 at 8:19 pm

What, you want to tax pussy too?

GAAPrulesIFRSdrools December 18, 2011 at 2:53 pm

And of course a state tax on such maritime excess caused “reporting for duty” John Kerry (who served in Vietnam) to pay the tax eagerly. Oh wait, no he docked his boat on Rhode Island to avoid to tax.

Troll Watch December 18, 2011 at 4:24 pm

I won’t tax you, you troll, I’d take everything you own away from you for soiling and spoiling the planet for all living things. I put you into a camp for environmental awareness. You’d have to grow your own food or starve to death.

HaywoodU December 18, 2011 at 5:21 pm

Now I recognize this bit. It’s our old friend Tired.

Keep up the good work, friendo.

anthonyl December 18, 2011 at 8:20 pm

Rough!

Greg Webb December 19, 2011 at 12:59 am

LOL, Troll! You won’t do anything to anybody. You are powerless. Now, deal with your insecurities.

Troll Watch December 18, 2011 at 4:26 pm

You express the John Birch Society point of view very well – broken extreme right-wing record – a tissue of Koch brother lies.

Greg Webb December 18, 2011 at 4:28 pm

You say nothing new. I’ve heard all that before.

Troll Watch December 18, 2011 at 4:22 pm

Troll.

Majuscule December 18, 2011 at 4:46 pm

Zzzzzzz

Brad Hutchings December 18, 2011 at 7:20 pm

Thanks for ruining the comments here. I guess terrorism works.

anthonyl December 18, 2011 at 8:16 pm

Russ has more things going on than Just CH.

Invisible Backhand December 18, 2011 at 11:13 pm

His rap videos went viral. Since he’s in the propaganda business, he’d be crazy not to focus on that.

Gotta remember, he’s in the advertising business, and he has to keep the advertisers coming back for more. Those videos delivered more, newer, differenter eyeballs than about 3 years of this blog.

(I know differenter is not a word)

Josh S December 18, 2011 at 12:32 pm

People should spend their money on important things, like giving it to Occupy protestors so they can buy more weed.

Greg Webb December 18, 2011 at 12:42 pm

I’m in favor of breaking up corporate farms and giving plots of land to the the occupy protestors so that they can grow their own weed.

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. -Chinese proverb

Greg Webb December 18, 2011 at 2:05 pm

Silly Pretender. Apparently, you cannot correctly apply facts and circumstances to Chinese proverbs. Thou shalt not steal farms or anything else from anyone. Instead let’s teach OWS protesters how to fish and hunt, and they will be able to eat trout and deer for a lifetime.

Greg Webb December 18, 2011 at 4:30 pm

Stealing my identity again to spew right-wing blather. You’re the one who need to re-educated. You’re off the deep end as usual. You will flounder then drown in treacherous waters.

Greg Webb December 18, 2011 at 10:16 pm

Silly Pretender. Now, you will have to go somewhere else to insult good people who advance individual liberty.

Methinks1776 December 18, 2011 at 1:14 pm

:)

steve December 18, 2011 at 1:44 pm

Here’s to hoping they legalize it soon. I have been overweighted in brownie futures for quite a while.

Steve

steve December 18, 2011 at 1:07 pm

The young man featured shows once again that youth is wasted on the young.

Steve

Methinks1776 December 18, 2011 at 1:14 pm

I tried to learn that lesson when I was young. I remember trying to burn certain things into my memory and really appreciate it, but it was of no use. You don’t know what you’re going to miss about youth until it’s gone, so you don’t know exactly what you need to appreciate most. I now think that it’s unavoidable. You can’t fight it – youth is always and forever wasted on the young.

vikingvista December 18, 2011 at 3:37 pm

One way not to pine for one’s youth is to spend it in dark lecture halls and late night cram sessions. I suspect this is not the strategy of the Occupy youth.

steve December 18, 2011 at 1:12 pm

I think Rogoff offers a better look at problems with capitalism than some Occupy kid.

http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/rogoff87/English

Steve

Jon Murphy December 18, 2011 at 4:12 pm

Rogoff’s article is certainly worth a read.

g-dub December 18, 2011 at 1:57 pm

DB wrote:

Professor of Economics
George Mason University

The village idiot is going to knot up.

Majuscule December 18, 2011 at 2:13 pm

I thought Irritable Bowel would have an aneurysm after seeing Don post his address after the letter. Funny how he hasn’t mentioned it.

Invisible Backhand December 18, 2011 at 11:22 pm

I have other things to do, you know. If this was their blog they could do what they want, but it belongs to GMU. I suspect this blog is generating some backlash within the university, so they decided to close the comments instead.

There is such a thing as academic honesty and ethics, and Russ and Don make GMU look like Foxnews U.

Randy December 18, 2011 at 2:38 pm

OWS is the left’s Battle of the Bulge. Not ready to admit defeat, they throw themselves headlong into the effort using all their best weapons and tactics, for one last chance at victory. But this time they face a stronger and more resilient foe – a population that has seen this attack before and knows the lunatics who launched it for what they are. The attackers will share a moment of glory, create a story to tell, but then falter, and fail, and then return to world that is as best they can.

GAAPrulesIFRSdrools December 18, 2011 at 3:11 pm

I’m guessing I’m one of a very small number of people posting here who has any experience with railroad operations. I’m also guessing that such experience in absolutely unnecessary in knowing that that this is cluelessness defined-although actually I consider it criminally negligent with the welfare of a child.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyIltLYI1Z8

But you see “lotus” has faith in human nature, so if she we-we beweeves, physics will be suspended and the choo-choo will stop.

Despite numerous examples of stuff like this all through “occupy” (well, when they aren’t raping or spewing antisemetic rants) we’re supposed to believe they are sages and not sheep.

Brad Hutchings December 18, 2011 at 3:28 pm

The biggest problem with any of these Occupy things is that it is impossible to tell the real thing from a good parody. For example, when OWS first started, I posted a paragraph on my Facebook page about having an Occupy rally in my home town, starting at a Wells Fargo ATM and marching to an abandoned Cold Stone Creamery (it was abandoned because an old lady took out the lobby with her Cadillac) and then to Pete’s Coffee to protest coffee corporatism.

Clearly a complete joke, especially if you know the actual place I’m talking about, where this march would go about 1/2 city block in a glorified strip mall. But no, it actually got a response from a local major party (you guess which one) activist who liked the idea of local action and wanted to coordinate. smh.

GiT December 18, 2011 at 4:56 pm

Is there anything more to this letter than an appeal to authority and a false dilemma?

If there is, I don’t see it.

Methinks1776 December 18, 2011 at 4:57 pm

Have some eggnog. You’ll feel better.

HaywoodU December 18, 2011 at 5:23 pm

May I suggest you add equal amounts Crown and Courvosier? Just a thought.

GiT December 18, 2011 at 5:31 pm

Of course, why bother to actually evaluate someone’s argument as long as you prima facie agree with the conclusion.

The lack of respect people here have for those they agree with is astonishing. Bad arguments are bad arguments, regardless of their conclusions. If you don’t recognize and critique bad arguments in those with whom you agree, then you are doing a disservice to your supposed allies and yourself.

Methinks1776 December 18, 2011 at 5:34 pm

Make that a double for Git, HaywoodU. He needs it!

HaywoodU December 18, 2011 at 6:13 pm

Fact!

muirge0 December 18, 2011 at 6:41 pm

Here is , I believe , a list of officially approved Occupy DC demands;

They seem reasonably well thought out and not particularly anti-capitalist. Arguably they are more pro-capitalism then the current state of affairs.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/detailed-list-of-demands-overview-of-tactics-for-d/

Jeffersonish December 19, 2011 at 10:41 am

While there are some aspects of OWS I agree with, the major theme seems to be that of pro-socialism/communism which is antithetical to liberty. Occupy Christmas is the very essence of that mindset where wealth is despised. What Occupy Christmas says is, “Forced redistribution of wealth using threat of force is good while voluntary redistribution of wealth is so distasteful, we should protest it.”

brotio December 20, 2011 at 12:36 am

I have opened a xanga account and will forward our hosts postings there and allow comments there

http://cafe-hayek-comments.xanga.com/

I think that you will have to create a xanga account in order to comment. If this is true, it will prevent the name-hijacking that our Leftist, idiot trolls are so fond of. I do not intend to forbid comments because of name-calling, and will not forbid Yasafi, Gil, DK, GregG, or any of the other non-trolls from commenting. I will reserve the right to remove comments that violate the obscenity requirements our hosts have asked of us here.

Thanks all, and I hope this will allow us to continue our dialogues until our hosts decide how comments will be handled here.

At the risk of engaging the spam filters, I’m re-posting this at the end of the thread.

Ken Dixon December 20, 2011 at 6:49 am

Ken Dixon

As long as Fox news and Ruch Limbaugh spew their misinformation and distortions these sheep will believe them at all costs. Why? because they speak to their inner hate. It has NOTHING to do with whats real whats fair whats rational whats good for America it only comes down to one thing THEIR INNER HATE!! Thats the most important thing and they cover it behind a so called political platform/party They must have all been bullied or abused or brainwashed or something as children for now is their chance to get back at everyone eles. They use to cover their hate for gays Blacks, Hispanics,Muslims, Teachers,Unions, The French, Hollywood,Liberals,Athiests,Sc​ience, Bugs bunny etc etc with distorted and insane arguments or just plain lies to at least try and give the impression they were somewhat normal. Now they dont even do that. They are more then willing to voice their hate upfront and outright. basicaly the hell with everyone eles but them and they wonder why their are so many people in the street demonstrating. Just wait Keep being the obstructionists you are. Keep NOT compromising, Keep encouraging only the rich and it will get worse. You will destroy your own party with your nothing but hate agenda and I cant wait

Visible Right Hook December 20, 2011 at 8:47 am

As long as MSNBC and Rachel Madcow spew their misinformation and distortions, leftist sheep will believe them at all costs. Why? Because they speak to their inner hate. It has NOTHING to do with what’s real, what’s fair, what’s rational, or what’s good for America. It only comes down to one thing: THEIR INNER HATE! That’s the most important thing and they cover it behind a so called political platform/party. They must have all been bullied or abused or brainwashed or something as children for now is their chance to get back at everyone eles. They use that to cover their hated of the successful, the productive, the rich, the poor, The Tea Party, common people, libertarians, conservatives, freedom-loving people across the globe, Christians, Jews, intelligent people, working people, Tom and Jerry, etc. with distorted and insane arguments or just plain lies to at least try and give the impression they are somewhat normal. Now they don’t even do that. They are more than willing to voice their hate upfront and outright. Basically, the hell with everyone eles but them and they wonder why there are so many people in the street demonstrating. Just wait. Keep being the statists that you are. Keep NOT thinking. Keep encouraging only corrupt politicians and their cronies, and it will get worse. You will destroy your own party with your nothing but your hate agenda. The next election is coming soon, and we all know real change is coming. I can’t wait!

Greg Webb December 20, 2011 at 9:33 am

What swamp did you crawl out of?

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