Let's Go Googling

by Russ Roberts on October 10, 2006

in Data, Standard of Living

In the comments to this recent post, there’s a thoughtful debate among Cafe Hayek readers about the state of our standard of living. One reader, Joan, makes the following argument:

The fact that we are having a discussion about whether or not we are
better off is proof the the economy has not been performing well. In
1980 no one questioned we were better off than in 1950, that 1950 was
better than 1920 or 1920 was better than 1890.

There have been some interesting responses to Joan’s claim, but I want to make a different point.

It is very difficult to know from casual observation how the overall economy is performing or what is happening to inequality or to the standard of living of the average American over time. When unemployment was 25%, as it was in 1933, I suspect most people had an idea of how bad things were. But when unemploment is 4.5% and the economy is growing, your casual observations are inevitably tainted by your circle of friends, your neighborhood, your city, your region. You have no idea how people are doing overall. You may not even have an honest assessment of your own situation relative to your past or your parents.

The level of inequality in the national economy is not a palpable, perceivable, noticeable phenomenon. Changes in that level are particularly difficult to notice or perceive.
The only reason people think inequality is growing is because of
articles in newspapers reporting on government data and research using
that data. Those data are flawed but more importantly, how those numbers are interpreted are flawed.

For example, the claims being made about the amount of money going
to the top 1% or top 10% often implicitly assume that the people in the
top 1% are the same people a decade later. So if the share going to the
top 1% climbs, the implication is that the top 1% are corralling more
of the money for themselves using the Fed or tax policy or brainwaves
or crushing unions or some other nefarious strategy.

But they are
not the same people. If the economy is growing dramatically and if
there are opportunities for entrepreneurs, a few people are going to be
much much better off than they were before. They will be catapulted
from the bottom or the middle of the distribution into the top 1% or
the top .1%. When the founders of Google created Google they became
extremely wealthy. But they were only able to do that by pleasing
others, by getting others to use their service. Before Google was
successful, they weren’t in the top 1%. They were students, first, then
struggling entrepreneurs. They were catapulted into the top 1% out of
nowhere.

Because of their success and the success of others like them, they
displaced other in the top 1%. But by doing so, they didn’t make any
one poorer. The resulting "inequality" has no meaning, really, at least
not in the sense in which the worriers about inequality mean the term.
It’s not like they suddenly got more money and people at the bottom got
less. Another way to say it is that people at the bottom got a smaller
share of a bigger pie. So they can easily be better off. Isn’t that what we really care about? Improving people’s lives?

Why would we ever be alarmed or concerned about this kind of growth in so-called inequality?

And we would never be aware of it in the absence of misinterpreted
government data. And that would be good. We wouldn’t be missing
anything.

Instead of being focused on outcomes, outcomes that are prone to
misinterpretation and manipulation by self-interested parties, we
should focus on the the fairness of the rules. If you go to college and
study something serious, do you do well in America? Do the rich put up
barriers to success that prevent hard-working, intelligent non-rich
people from succeeding? Instead of showing me government statistics,
show me rules or institutions that prevent people from escaping poverty.

One alleged such institutional change is the decline in unions. But the
decline in unions wasn’t the result of a conspiracy. It’s an endogenous
change caused by the transformation in the kind of jobs we do.
Unionization has been declining steadily during times of growing
measured inequality and times of a more stable distribution of income.
In most American occupations, the lack of unions means nothing. Workers
don’t need unions to keep their wages high. So show me something else
that rich Americans are doing to keep the poor, poor. I don’t see it.

Those who complain about inequality fail to understand that the level
of inequality in America is an emergent phenomenon. It is not intended
or designed by anyone. It is the result of millions of decisions made
by millions of Americans. "Fixing" it is not a matter of tweaking this
policy or that. And if I am right about the importance of entrepreneurs
and others who benefit from a growing economy, growing "inequality" is the result of a growing economy rather than a social problem.

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  • JohnDewey

    nicole shore: "Consider how long it takes a recent college grad to secure a job that pays a liveable wage"


    Here's the average starting salaries for some college degrees:


    engineering $51K

    computer science $51K


    accounting $46K


    business admin/finance $40K


    nursing $39K


    What's not livable about these salaries?


    Someone may point out that some relative or friend can't find jobs in these fields, but that's certainly not the norm. These graduates are still in high demand.

  • David

    Sorry for the lapse, Russ. I meant George Mason, of course. Your president doesn't know where my country is, so let's call it even. I also meant distinguished from my own standards, which I believe are higher than those of the "academic elite".


    Adam expressed my analogy in clear terms. We are all better off. Problem with leftists is they can't stand growing inequality, even when both parties progress. The most dangerous ones would prefer to end improvement in standards of living in the name of equality. And the worst is, they are most of the time well-intended. Blame it on the lack of good economic education.

  • joan

    Russ:

    Inflation targeting could reduce wage growth by slowing down the economy when the demand for labor went over what they considered inflationary ( the "natural" rate on unemployment). This limits the upward shift in the demand for labor curve that is normal in boom periods. I doubt that is the reflection of a healthy economy because it started in the mid 70' and I think there are very few that would describe the period between 1977 and 1983 as healthy economy.





    This slowing of overall wage growth combined with the downward pressure on unskilled labor by immigration and trade as well as the increased demand for skilled labor due to the high tech revolution, means that although the median is up around 25% thoes above the median are up more and those below are up less.


    It is very hard to measure the income at either end of income spectrum. On the bottom because of the help the government provides to the poor, and the number of young student households/tax returns who are actually being supported by parents. On the top end the fluctutions caused by the stock market, business cycles, and changes in the tax laws make quantity measurement almost meaningless. I think comparing to gdp is a more reliable way of looking at trends than income inquality measures.



  • Nicole Shore

    I think we will know best if things are better or worse a good distance in the future when many of us will be at the retiring point or facing an employment market that is even less friendly to older employess than it already is. Consider how long it takes a recent college grad to secure a job that pays a liveable wage, then pay off their student loan debt, and then actually be able to begin to put money away for retirement/old age. Plus, less people are getting married, which means less sharing of costs and less money to bank for the future. Not to mention how cost of living has gone up at a far greater rate than salaries. As those born in the 70's + begin to hit senior citizen age, we'll truly be able to look back and say things weren't better now compared to decades prior, because retiring will prove to be something that many of us can't fathom or afford. For now, we can only worry about what the future holds and try to build our 401 k's.

  • JohnDewey

    Alex,


    Do the studies on intergenerational wealth include real estate as well as financial assets? Consider two generations of a California family who realized large real estate gains. If we compare them with two generations of a Texas family who did not realize such gains, would that comparison show that economic mobility has decreased?


  • JohnDewey

    alex: "The economic mobility of sons compared to their fathers fell from the seventies to the eighties, and from the eighties to the nineties"


    Is this income or wealth? Does it compare lifetime income or lifetime wealth from one generation to another? If so, then it should not include any child or any parent who was still alive at the end of the nineties, correct?


    What is your definition of ecoomic mobility, anyway?

  • JohnDewey

    Alex, can you provide any data to back up your assertion about declining mobility? or at least a link that shows such data?


    I don't doubt that it is difficult for someone born to the bottom quintile to rise to the top quintile. But it has been done many times.


    I think mobility measurements compare the highest quintile achieved by the parent with the current quintile of the child. But is that correct?.


    Here's my own situation:

    My parents:


    - bottom quintile in 1951 when I was born;


    - moved to second quintile about 1962;


    - moved to third quintile years after I left home, when my mother began working.


    My household:

    - started in bottom quintile;


    - gradually moved up to reach top quintile by 1994.


    So how would I be counted? We could say a three quintile jump if we compared my maximum with my parents' level when I left home. Or we could say a two quintile jump if we compared my maximum to theirs. But if we measured in 1983, we'd probably say no gain, because my family was in the same quintile as theirs.


    Can those who study income mobility possibly know enough about lifetime incomes of parent and child? Perhaps they do, but I'd like to see evidence before accepting your assertion.

  • Russ Roberts

    Joan,


    I don't understand how inflation targeting reduces wage growth. It might reduce nominal wage growth, but it should suppress the growth in real wages.


    The graph you refer to is very interesting. But one interpretation of it is that a healthy economy leads to growth in the share going to the top 10%. A stagnant economy or one in recession reduces the opportunities for wealth accumulation and therefore the share stays pretty constant or falls.


    That tells you nothing about the well-being of the bottom 90%. The bottom 90% can be better off as their share falls because the overall economy is doing well. Why would you want to live in the 1930s for example, when the share going to the bottom 90% is growing?

  • joan

    If anyone had bothered to look at the numbers and the graph I referred to, they might have noticed that they more or less agree with your estimate. If you assume the GDP deflator is correct the real gdp grew about 55% and the bottom 90% of reported incomes(which is mostly wages, most ss is not reported on tax returns) fell about 25% compared to gdp, after correcting for unreported benefits, that leaves something like 27% real wage increase. Since I was talking about income and wages, I assumed my later post would be taken that way, not as a statement about subjective reality or the existential angst one might feel when Carter was president.


    I said

    the bottom 90% share of gdp which was at 42% from the end of WWII to the mid 70’s, falling to a little over 30% today? Looking at this plot it is very hard to deny that their was a shift the economy in the 1970's, that accounts for part of the reason the gains we see today are not as big as those we saw in the 50's and 60's. One thing that occurs to me is that inflation targeting by the fed has suppressed wage growth....."


    You said

    "The Census Bureau, for instance, says that the median-earning man who works full time -- the one in the dead middle of the earnings ladder -- made slightly less last year than in 1977. It is one of the main numbers cited by those who say life isn't much better now than 30 years ago.


    But Mr. Gordon's adjustments show that men actually got a 27 percent raise in this period and women 65 percent. The gains are not as big as those of the 1950's and 60's, but they do sound far more realistic than the official numbers."

  • alex

    First, the original post was about people in one generation moving up, and I decided to point out that the example given was not conductive to the arguement being given.

    On incremental growth over generations; its declining. Sorry to break it to you. The economic mobility of sons compared to their fathers fell from the seventies to the eighties, and from the eighties to the nineties. On the other side, the story about rags to riches to rags is a myth; rich people are now more likely to pass on dynastic wealth for more generations. Oh yeah, and the ability to move up even one quintile in a generation, not two or going to the top, has declined. And you were saying about incremental progress?


    Also, I mentioned intergenerational mobility because of what it means. I agree that parents will pass on skills and wealth to their children. However, if this is the case, then there will not be equality of opportunity and a level playing field. You would have to admit that the US does have a class based society, where the children fortunate enough to choose the right parents start out way ahead and stay ahead. If you believe that, then its fine. But the main authors here continually deny that we have a class based society, that there is equal opportunity for all.


    In addition, I will point out that you are making an irrelevant point. I was talking about economic mobility and class calcification, not whether it was OK or not for people to transmit wealth and skills to their offspring.


    But to go on to what you say about your family. Ok, so? How your family has happened to be shaped does not impact the issue or arguement at all. Its confirmation bias. I have a few generations back of relatives who went to college and were professionals and successful and didn't transfer any wealth to me either. That is totally irrelevant to what I was addressing.

  • Confused by Alex

    Alex, I am sorry to put this so bluntly but you are flat wrong and you insinuate that something is bad without backing it up.


    1) Why does it matter that my future wealth is somewhat connected to my parent's? Not only do parents pass on money to their children they also pass on SKILLS. If my parents were in the top 10% it would stand to reason that they could help give me the skills to attain that level of wealth or income.

    2) My great grandfather was a sharecropper in Arksansas. My Grandfather is a retired fork lift driver in backwoods Mississippi. One of uncles was the Vice President of a Fortune 500 company. My Aunt owns her own successfull sewing business and my parents are quite successfull. At what point did the previous "wealth" in my family step in to propel to the top of wage earners? Was it when Dad could see the snow blowing through the walls or when my grandfather taught himself the stock market?


    3)You are only defining markets as mobile if people can move from the bottom 1% to the top 1% in one generation. Why do you ignore incremental growth over a number of generations?

  • Mr. Econotarian

    Here's a better one from 1984 on net.politics:


    "Why I'm voting for Mondale, Part I: The Economy"


    "One is that Reagan's 'curves' are not going to converge. He's

    basing his projections on the assumption that the economy will grow at a


    steady rate of 4% a year over the next four years, which is a pipe dream at


    best (talk about optimism!)."


    On average, it certainly did grow at about 4% per year for four years.

  • Mr. Econotarian

    Here is a post from 1983 talking about how the U.S. economy "lacks deep-rooted strength."




    Weekly Business Summary - January 28, 1983


    from USENET newsgroup net.invest...


    "Length of Post War Recessions


    The 1981-82 recession has lasted 18 months if you agree that the

    recession actually began in July 1981 and ended in December 1982. How


    does that compare to the length of previous recessions? It's the


    longest. Here are results from previous downturns:


    1981-82: 18 months

    1973-75: 16 "


    1969-70: 11 "


    1960-61: 10 "


    1953-54: 10 "


    1957-58: 7 "


    1980: 5 "


    Why are there so many recessions since the late sixties? One reason

    is that our economy lacks deep-rooted strength. It has been


    artificially stepped up by the overspending of the federal government.


    For long term economic growth, there must be less government


    intervention. "

  • Adam Malone

    David (of Canada) has highlighted the only important question that should be a part of "comparing" incomes. Is everyone better off now than they used to be or are only the rich people better off?


    In everyway that question can be answered with a resounding "YES" we are all better off. In nation where the life expectancy of everyone is continually rising, where more babies survive than used to, people work fewer hours, those fewer hours purchase more goods, and we are a net exporter of food, healthcare, and education it is proposterous to think that we could possibly be worse off than we used to.


    Between my PC, the internet, email, and my cell phone I can do more business in a day than could have been done in weeks or even months a few years ago.


    Free trade creates wealth. Let's just enjoy it.

  • alex

    This post is wrong on a number of accounts. First off, socioeconomic mobility in the US is lower than in so-called "Socialist" countries like France, Sweden, and Denmark. Also, now half of a person's income today can be linked in part to their parent's earnings, versus only a fifth in Canada, France, and other countries. So, when you say that the people at the top are changing, sorry, but you are wrong. The number of people staying at the top is increasing as the top gets ever higher.

    Also, you say that you cannot tell that inequality is growing. Well then, you are very good at not noticing certain things, since you are paid to not notice inequality. I live in Pittsburgh, PA. Let me tell you, this isn't New York, San Fransisco, Palo Alto, in terms of the discrepencies in people's incomes or wealth, but the changes can be seen here, too. There are more boutiques, fine retaurants, and more generally stores that are not in the price range of what we would call the middle class (20th percentile to 80th percentile). More areas are becoming gentrfied. This is due in part to the increasing prosperity of UPMC in the area, as well as the growing wealth of the major universities here (Carnegie Mellon and Pitt). But don't tell me that, if in Pittsburgh of all places disparities are growing, that in the rest of the country, they are not. If we are talking about very rural areas and small towns with less than 10% of the country's population and have little connection outside, then yes. But hell no if you are talking about cities, suburbs and areas where the economy is connected and people are working and doing things.


    Lastly, you mentioned the guys who founded Google as proof that people who are now at the top were not there recently. Several problems with this example. One, just looking at the bios on Sergy Brin and Larry Page, both had parents who were tenured professors and had professional mothers working as well. Both were born into families from at least the top 5% of the US population. That is not the same as starting in the bottom 20% at all. If we think society is relatively mobile, then people at the bottom have a similar chance to strike it rich to those near the top. The very fact that most of the newly successful people were already born near the top debunks the notion that society is mobile and that inequality doesn;t have consequences. Its easy to make a homerun when you are born on second or third, than if you are starting in the batters cage.


    Add in the various inherited wealth types we have in this country (at least several hundred thousand, and growing), and you can see that the notion that things are very mobile is BS. Also, sorry to add this, but the people who pumped money into Google at the beginning were wealthy to start with, so as successful members from near the top get rich, the rich get richer as well. So much for mobility and inequality.

  • Russ Roberts

    David,


    Am I the distinguished Georgetown professor? Alas, I am merely an undistinguished professor at George Mason University. But thanks for the upgrade. And I try not to miss a chance to promote the name of our lesser known university.

  • '...some would say that the communists at least fed the population...'


    The communist nations all had massive famines that killed millions. Literally starved to death. Just as is happening in North Korea today.

  • [W]ould taxing income from capital more lightly than income from labor be an example of those at the top stacking the game against everyone else?


    To the extent that tax policy encourages capital investment, more subtly as noted above, it benefits little old me.


    I do contract work on development projects in my field. I work when the client corporation makes capital investments. Q.E.D.

  • Noah Yetter makes an excellent point. Inequality is not in and of itself inherently bad; what we should be looking at isn't whether the rich are doing a whole lot better than the poor, but whether the poor are doing a whole lot better now than they were before.


  • The fact that I am having a discussion about whether or not we are better off with a distinguished Georgetown professor while sitting on my couch back in Canada is proof the economy has been performing well. In 1980 no one questioned we were better off than in 1950, that 1950 was better than 1920 or 1920 was better than 1890, because our standards of living were lower, blogs didn't exist, and we simply couldn't create a fuss of the magnitude we're seeing today.

  • Noah Yetter

    Inequality is not a meaningful concept in any of the ways it is usually measured. It is a pure statistical artifact, like the mean and standard deviation of the sum of poker hands or serial numbers. You cannot look out your window and see the distribution of income, nor does it affect you, the individual, in any way, shape, or form. In fact, quite the reverse, your income and/or wealth are *determinants* of measured inequality. The facts of our lives are not effects of this statistic, but rather its causes.


    In my belief this is THE number one thing to keep in mind when pondering inequality.

  • JohnDewey

    Adam Malone,


    Very good post.


    Redistributionists often argue that $500 million doesn't hurt the super-rich as much as $50,000 would hurt the blue-collar worker. In their twisted minds, that somehow justifies the legal theft of heirs' property.

  • Adam Malone

    If you look at the Forbes list of the Richest Americans, it should become readily apparent that MANY on the list are there because of their own hard work.


    Look at the top 20: Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, Micheal Dell, Larry Parge, Sergey Brin... These are just a few of those who made their billions through hard work, innovation, and savvy business skills. If Sam Walton were alive he would top the list at 77 billion, instead he 5 heirs on the list. Some would view that as tragic, that his billions were simply given to those who came after him.


    When people make silly comments about raising the income tax or increasing the death tax, what they are saying is WE deserve the money more than THEY do. Isn't that at least as bad as the billionaires who want to keep their money?


    No one would dream of walking up to a blue collar working and saying "I know you have saved $100,000 over your lifetime. Good job. Now we are going to redistribute that wealth among a whole lot of people who haven't done that."


    But for some reason when we start talking about $100 million or $50 billion the that rule is changed. Like so many things, I believe those rules "change" because it isn't the people with the money (top 1%) making the rules; however, the people making rules usually want to at least act like they are blue collar workers, out there for the "workin" man.


    But let me say this...if you read any biographies of people like Warren Buffet, you realize that they work just as hard as anyone else. They just are better at it than the rest of us.


    When we die we want our kids to get every cent that we leave to them; how hypocritical if we say that these people don't deserve the same.

  • JohnDewey

    Morgan,


    Thanks for the link. The percentage of very wealthy who own businesses - 86% - is a little higher than I would have guessed.


    I'm not sure these very wealthy business owners are all in the highest income group, though they are likely in the top 5%. Wealthy business owners I've known tend to reinvest most of their profits back into the buisiness and grow it.


  • By the way, the VIP forum is a banking industry group, not a porn site. I thought I should make that clear, because looking at that URL there's no way I'd click on it without a little more information.

  • John:


    You might find this report interesting - it deals with the proportion of the wealthy that are business owners and the expected magnitude of asset transfers as owners cash out over the next decade:


    http://www.thevipforum.com/ProgramImages/VIP/VIP138GLC502.pdf

  • JohnDewey

    Nathan,


    If I were in the top 1% of income or wealth, I personally wouldn't want either number to be anyone else's business. I think the list of the world's wealthiest persons is based on estimates. Other than the top corporate executives, athletes, and entertainers, is it possible to know how much income any person has?


    If a sole proprietor sells his business for $5 million, that won't make the Wall Street Journal, but it could propel him very high in the income rankings for a single year. My guess is that the U.S. has at least as many high-income sole proprietors in any single year as it does corporate executives.

  • Lowcountryjoe

    I'm going to be upfront and come clean, I did not slog my way through very many of these comments -- which will be evident if someone has already made this point -- and I didn't catch the first discussion, but does anyone find it rather humorous that we're debating whether or not our standard of living is rising while we're inputing our thoughts/opinions through (or over) an electronic data medium, with instant delivery, with more total free time enjoyed by ordinary people that at any other time in human history? If it could suck any worse, we'd all be spending our leisure time trying to build a time machine. Hello, McFly (and fellow doom/gloom, glass-half-empty types)!

  • @ yankee redneck:


    I spent two years homeless, during which those programs that "keep the poor poor poor" put me through a trade school and got me a largely worthless certificate. The certificate still got me into an interview that put me into a career field which took me from having jack squat to being within spitting distance of that oft-quoted $200K that makes you part of the top 2%. It just took fifteen years to do it. I didn't get it for free. I had to work like hell every step of the way.


    Through various circumstances, some of my own making, I tumbled from that back down to jack squat and ended up on welfare for all of TWO MONTHS before dragging myself back up to upper middle class range. Am I back where I was? No. Will I get there? Yes. Will I surpass it? You bet your ass; I'm expecting to have a $200K salary within three years. Not because someone will give it to me, but because I am out here busting my ass to earn it.


    These programs don't really keep people poor. They simply give you an excuse to continue doing nothing. You don't have to USE that excuse. You can still get off your ass and work like hell to make something of your life. You just have to want it enough.


    That's what the American dream is all about: the idea that when you're ready to do whatever you have to do, you can get wherever you want to go. Dropping the first half of that doesn't make the dream better, because the first half is what makes the second half work.


  • yankee redneck

    show me rules or institutions that prevent people from escaping poverty.


    ahem:

    welfare (though less so after the 96 law)


    section 8 housing


    We have plenty of institutions that keep the poor poor poor. they're disguised as "programs"

  • Nathan

    John T:


    Thanks for your comments.


    1) "And Mom may get promoted to principle at her law firm, moving the family from 25% to 20%"


    Their transistion from 25% to 20% was purely hypothetical. I'm actually surprised that I was within a reasonable range. Revisiting that example, we'll assume Dad provides legal services as well. In that case, Mom's promotion may be even less likely to shift their income position.


    2)Thank you for pointing out the distinction between income and wealth. Apologies for overlooking something quite obvisous. Is it indeed likely, however, that the top 1% or 5% have a signifcant portion of measurable income in the form of capital gains/dividends? Thus we can draw *loose* conclusions that higher concentrations of total assets will in turn generate higher real income.


    3) Great point about celebreties, athletes, etc. making up a larger portion of the upper quartile. Given their lives of glamour and fame it's interesting to think of acting, punting a football, or sinking a 6-foot putt as labor, but it's certainly the case.


    4) Of the names on the Forbes 400, we have no way of telling whether or not they were already in the top 1%. Sure, they are new to the mega-mega-rich list, but that does not mean that they weren't just plain rich or mega-rich before. They may have gone from 1% to 0.001%


    Is a change in the method of surveying the only way to capture composition changes?


  • John Thacker

    Nathan, we should be careful not to confuse income and wealth. You talk about income quintiles, but then talk about "there may be evidence that in the aggregate, mega-millionaires tend to retain their assets over time," which is a wealth issue.


    One thing we do know about wealth is that far fewer of the Forbes 400 richest individuals in the US inherited their money or made it from land these days than at any other time. Business founders, along with entertainment stars, make up a much larger proportion than at times before. The percentage of the rich who make their money through labor, rather than capital or rents, is higher than ever.


    "And Mom may get promoted to principle at her law firm, moving the family from 25% to 20%"


    If Dad works as well, then the family is most likely above top 20%. A household income of $100,000 puts one in the top 17.2% (http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/incomesta...>

    Of course, most of our stats are household stats, which means that the impact of marriag and divorce can be quite dramatic.

  • Nathan

    We continue to read about the author's belief that the composition of the top 1%, 5%, 10%, etc. changes from year to year. And I wholly agree that the composition is not static. I'm wary about the magnitude of these shifts.


    Sure, the founders of Google (and now YouTube) will jump the percentile boundaries. And Mom may get promoted to principle at her law firm, moving the family from 25% to 20%. Or perhaps Mr. Smith has finshed his associates degree and gone from bagging groceries at Stop & Shop into an entry level clerk job at a local office, thus jumping up to the next quintile.


    But objectively, especially in the top 1%, what is the magnitude of these shifts from year to year? Do we really see a shift in near-billionaire fortunes on a regular basis? In the upper stratosphere of American income distribution, what percentage of the composition actually shifts?


    Is there any sound research on the mercurial composition of income quintiles?


    In theory, there are no barriers to entry to any income percentile but there may be evidence that in the aggregate, mega-millionaires tend to retain their assets over time.


    There are 2.96 million people (1.14 million households) in the top 1%. Newly minted internet-millionaires and busted corporate crooks make up a small fraction of that total.

  • JohnDewey

    GeorgeNYC: "the fact of higher incmes for the wealthy may signal that they have a greater responsibiltiy to those below them. "


    Responsibility to do what?


    Provide them with jobs? It's the capitalists in this nation who provide all the jobs for everyone else.


    Ensure that no one starves? that everyone receives an education? It's the upper income earners and the businesses they've built who pay almost all the taxes - taxes used for food stamps, for EITC, for subsidized housing, for public schools, etc, etc.


    Provide medical care? We all, including the upper income earners, pay more for insurance and medical care to make up for the charity care provided to lower income families. We also pay the taxes that fund medicaid.


    What is it you wish we do that we're not already doing?

  • GeorgeNYC

    Can you point to a study as to how much the top 1% changes? What is the turnover? I doubt that you are trying to say that we all get our chance at the top 1% as if it were a lottery and every year someone new wins.


    I believe that some of the studies also pointed out that there is a growing relationship between a child's earnings and those of his/her parents. That would incdicate that realopportunity is decreasing. Of course I am sure that you would simply argue that open markets have allowed the genetically talented to pass along their traits with greater efficiency.


    I do agree that no one really "feels" the inequality. The whole "poverty is everyhere...dude" thing sounds great for 2am in the dorm room but it does not really mean much.


    Look at China. Yes they are now "capitalist" but there was a significant period of time when they were "communist." I was there in the 80's and some would say that the communists at least fed the population which was more than occured under the "capitalist" "occupation". Of course they also tortured and killed them (but then so did the Westerners and the Japanese).


    Absraction is wonderful It allows us to appear "intellectual" when dealing with real problems. Economics is also wonderful because we can argue about "markets" and "freedom" without really needing to think about the potential externalities which affect real people. Economics "asumes" certain things to be true in order for markets to be efficient but to really critically analyze things you need to be aware of when those asumptions do not hold.


    Answer one question? Is the New Yorlk Stock exchange a free market (or at least as free as you will find)? It is the core of capitalism right? It is certainly an "open" market. Probably the most transparent in the world. But guess what is needed to create that transparencey. lots and lots of government regulation without which there would probably be no trust in the market. No ability to at least expect some degree of truth in the claims made and information provided. No ability to convince others in other parts of the world to give money to us sight unseen.


    Free does not mean without regulation. The "rule of law" means that you have a government that can enforce agreements and contracts with some degree of certainty. (Maybe not as effectively as Tony Soprano but at least with some sense of justice). Sorry boys and girls but that is "regulation." without the rule of law behind every last one of you the calculation of what we could consider "property" would be much different. Yes it is true that some regulations may impede efficiency but not ALL regulations do that. Some are designed to make up for market inefficiencies, distortions and externalities. Those are also part of real economic analysis not just abstract reasonong about the beatuy of the market.


    I guess what I am saying (in an admittedly round about way) is that one does need to at least consider the impact of potential income gaps on individuals, not just collectively. It is easy for those of us with "survivors bias" to convince ourselves that those earning less are somehow less worthy. I am not arguing for "survivors guilt" but merely a recognition that maybe the fact of higher incmes for the wealthy may signal that they have a greater responsibiltiy to those below them.

  • JohnDewey

    caliban,


    Sorry. I apparently read too quickly your initial post and misunderstood the point you made.

  • JohnDewey

    Forgot to mention dividend income. After corporate income is taxed at high rates, owners of the corporation - the stockholders - may receive dividends. Dividends are a subset of the corporation's after tax income. But that dividend income will then be taxed once again, though at a lower rate. The combined taxation is likely double the rate wage earners pay.

  • John Dewey:


    > We do much, much more than nothing.


    You're misinterpreting the question. It's not "what do we do to the poor", but "what do we do to the poor THAT KEEPS THEM POOR".


    None of the things you reference are keeping them poor. In fact, quite the opposite: they make the poor LESS poor. It is a creation and redistribution of wealth for which the poor need do... nothing.


    It is that "nothing" they are doing which keeps them poor. You can, of course, choose to argue that doing these things trains the poor not to do anything because someone else will eventually do it for them... but you'd have a pretty steep uphill climb convincing me that *anyone* operates a homeless shelter in the sincere desire to prevent the homeless from living in their own homes.


    Even if the end result is to keep them poor, the *intent* is not to keep them poor, and the *effect* is not even to keep them poor - a homeless person with a shelter available is clearly wealthier than a homeless person with no shelter available.


  • JohnDewey

    dan hill: "would taxing income from capital more lightly than income from labor be an example of those at the top stacking the game against everyone else?"


    We don't tax income from capital more lightly than income from labor. Corporate income tax rates are certainly higher than average wage earner rates. Income earned by sole proprietors is taxed at ordinary income tax rates. Businesses also pay business taxes and property taxes.


    I think you are refering to taxes on capital gains. Capital gains are not the same thing as income from capital. Wage earners who sell their home can exclude from taxation up to $250,000 of any capital gain. Business owners must pay taxes on all their gain.


  • JohnDewey

    Caliban Darklock: "What we do to keep the poor where they are is exactly what put them there in the first place: nothing."


    We do much, much more than nothing.


    The well-off in this country provide most of the funds for schools attended by the poor.


    The well-off in this country, through taxes, pay for much of the schooling for the teachers who work at those schools.


    The well-off in this country, through taxes and donations, provide job training for the disabled poor and non-poor through organizations such as Goodwill.


    The well-off in this country, through their taxes, provides $9 billion annually to the Employment and Training Administration, most of which is used for training low income workers.


    The well-off in this country provide the taxes that pay for Medicaid and EITC, so that the poor can survive while gaining work skills at low-paying jobs.


    The well-off in this country, through taxes and donations, provide most of the money for women's shelters that allow poor and not-so-poor alike to escape abuse of spouses and fathers.


    I could find more, but I think that's enough. The "poor" in this country get ample opportunity to succeed - and they get it without having to do anything but try.

  • Xmas makes an interesting point. We let 14 year olds work; we just don't let them work full-time, or work past a certain number of hours in a day, or work too late on a school night. (Unless, of course, they work on a farm... but that's well beyond the scope or normalcy, so I'll ignore farms for the moment.)


    We also don't exactly have mandatory schooling; we have a mandatory educational level, which may be accomplished in any number of ways. If a fourteen year old can pass the GED, he doesn't have to go to high school.


    What may be productive to ask is why exactly we have these restrictions on the freedoms involved. Presumably, we have limits on teenage workers so they are not exploited, and we have mandatory educational levels because some parents don't recognise the value of education. But these are the rules of the nineteenth century. Are they still relevant today? Is it still productive to restrict these freedoms? Does a high school education really prepare one for the modern workforce, or indeed for college? Is it really more important to attend high school than to work?


  • Dan - consider tax incidence - pension funds & life insurance companies are the largest holders of publicly traded stocks in the US. Taxing capital, no matter how you slice it, has adverse affects on the blue-coller, middle america.

  • I pretty much agree, but would taxing income from capital more lightly than income from labor be an example of those at the top stacking the game against everyone else?

  • Well, there is the growing stratification of education in the US. Badly performing public schools and poor neighborhoods coincide far too much. That is definitely something that should be fixed.


    I'm not sure how it needs to be fixed or what exactly needs to be fixed, but something needs to be done about it.


    Maybe we can end mandatory schooling and lower the working age to 14.

  • Wow, man. You're on fire!


    It just reminds me of the negligence that news reporters and other special interest types show when they interpret the statistics and feed it to the general population after running it through the spin cycle. But perhaps bad news is good news for the negligent-er.


    -RY

  • What we do to keep the poor where they are is exactly what put them there in the first place: nothing.


    Someone recently gave me one of those whack-on-the-head moments by simply observing that poverty is not a problem, it is the default state of humanity. If you do nothing whatsoever, you will be poor. Hence, poverty does not have a cause. Nothing *causes* poverty. Poverty is more akin to a natural disaster, and wealth is how one recovers.


    Wealth, of course, has causes. There are things that cause wealth. They may be easily summarized as "getting off your ass", but that's an oversimplification. You need to get off your ass *and* do things that create wealth.


    We do not effectively educate one another on this point. However, I have no incentive to educate you on it, any more than I have incentive to simply give you money. The desire of certain people to give out money to the disadvantaged is incomplete: we must also provide them the education necessary to use that money wisely and generate wealth.


    Of course, we can't make them use that education, so we still can't save all of the poor. We must reconcile ourselves to the idea that in a truly free economy, a certain irreducible proportion of the poor cannot be helped and will perpetually reside in poverty.


    (No, we have not yet reduced our poor to that irreducible proportion.)


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