The Practicality of Free Trade

by Don Boudreaux on March 6, 2008

in Balance of Payments, Myths and Fallacies, Trade

One of the most intellectually shallow arguments against free trade is the one that motivates this op-ed in today’s New York Times by Robert E. Lighthizer.  In short, the argument is that free traders are impractically principled; a better policy (the argument implies) is one that recognizes that trade is sometimes good and sometimes not so good.  Here are two letters that I sent to the NYT in response.

Robert Lighthizer
dismisses principled free-traders as dogmatists who impractically stick
to their guns "no matter how many jobs are lost, how high the trade
deficit rises or how low the dollar falls" ("Grand Old Protectionists,"
March 6).  Alas, the impractical dogmatists are Mr. Lighthizer and his
fellow trade "pragmatists."

There is no credible evidence -
none, nada – that free trade causes net job losses.  Moreover, far from
being undesirable, a higher U.S. trade deficit means increased foreign
investment in the American economy.  And a falling dollar generally
reflects worsening U.S. domestic policies, such as inflationary
money-supply growth, the likelihood of higher taxes or more
command-and-control regulations, and, indeed, an increased probability
of U.S. protectionism – protectionism that, by stifling entrepreneurial
dynamism, makes America a less attractive place for foreigners to do
business.

Sincerely,
Donald J. Boudreaux

My second letter:

Among Robert Lighthizer’s
objections to principled free-traders is their opposition to
protectionism "no matter how many jobs are lost" ("Grand Old
Protectionists," March 6).

If Mr. Lighthizer is referring to
overall employment, his facts are wrong.  Free trade does not reduce
net employment.  But perhaps he’s talking about specific jobs, such as
those lost in Carolina textile mills when Americans buy more textiles
from abroad.  The argument seems to be that practical statecraft often
justifies protecting such jobs even if doing so prevents the creation
of other jobs in their place.  If this is Mr. Lighthizer’s point, he’s
too modest when calling for trade policies that allow for
"practicality, nuance or flexibility."  Because technology destroys far
more jobs than does trade, Mr. Lighthizer should endorse also a
"pragmatic" approach to innovation – empowering government with the
flexibly and nuance to block firms’ introduction of
efficiency-enhancing production techniques that displace workers. 
Surely, according to Mr. Lighthizer’s practical logic, we must reject the "dogma" that tolerates "unbridled"
improvements in firms’ operating efficiencies.

Sincerely,
Donald J. Boudreaux

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  • Lighthizer's arguments were rebutted by Bastiat 150 years ago. Bastiat specifically rebutted those who said supporters of free trade favored principles over real facts. It's hard to take someone seriously who hasn't read any of the relevant literature.

  • Well, I not only wanted to correct my misspelling of my own name in the previous post, but I pulled this quote from Lighthizer's article.


    "Free trade has long been popular with liberals, and it remains so with liberal elites today."


    Funny, I know a whole lot of liberals, and I have yet to meet one who's in favor of free trade. What's this guy been smokin'? Free trade reefer?

  • vidyohs

    Good response, Don. But, I doubt seriously if he will even begin to understand your point.


    Rational thinking is in such short supply these days particularly on the left.

  • Python

    Jams,


    Perhaps you don't know enough "liberal elites". But like your experience, the liberal faculty that I worked with sure thought they were elite but didn't like free trade.


    Jams is a pretty cool typo, you have to admit.

  • Waiting...waiting.

    When is the next straw man coming?

  • MU78

    Let's see, some trade is good and some is not good. Might there be a mirrored set of circumstances in other countries? Wouldn't this stop all trade between countries?


    People like Lighthizer would be happy if every country put their exports on boats that sunk in the ocean in a typhoon on their way to other countries. All exports and no imports! What a wonderful world that would be. Every politician is wondering how they can make this happen.

  • MU78

    On second thought, if Congress passes alaw requiring all exports, even those to Mexico and Canada, be shipped on boats, then I'll know they think they have reached the first level to political nirvana.

  • Brian-NJ

    "Funny, I know a whole lot of liberals, and I have yet to meet one who's in favor of free trade. What's this guy been smokin'? Free trade reefer?"

    - James Hanley


    Hello, my name is Brian and I am a liberal, a flaming smoking on fire out of control liberal, and I am for free trade, it is my pleasure to meet you.

  • sanjiv

    Nice to make your acquaintance, Brian.

    What do you think about Clinton's and Obama's rhetoric on NAFTA?

  • Corey

    "Good response, Don. But, I doubt seriously if he will even begin to understand your point.


    Rational thinking is in such short supply these days particularly on the left."


    The guy worked for Ronald Reagan and Bob Dole. Apparently rational thinking is in short supply in the Cafe Hayek comment section.




    As a future Obama/Clinton voter, I don't believe that either candidate will actually do much to hurt free trade. Bill signed NAFTA. Barack's a smart guy, and he'll hire smart economic advisers (hopefully). While McCain will be better in principle for free trade, in reality I doubt the future president will do much to affect free trade.


    Personally, I'm more concerned about what the future president will do to the Supreme Court. Four religious conservatives on the bench is already too many. McCain ('America is a Christian nation') would tip the balance too far to the right, for my tastes.

  • When might the next Supreme Court justice retire?

  • Jay

    This guy shows his utter stupidity when he uses Ted Kennedy as an example of a democrat for "free" trade. Wasn't Kennedy one of the most emotional supporters of a bill that forbids me from trading my labor in return for $5.50/hour in this country?


    I think the problem might be that Lighthizer defines the "free" in free trade the same way that Michael Moore defines "free" in free healthcare.

  • Python

    Corey,


    Do you think that everyone who worked for Jimmy Carter and Walter Mondale should be held up as a gold standard for all liberal bloggers to follow?


    And it's not like he wrote policy for either gentelemen...


    "Robert E. Lighthizer, a trade lawyer, was a deputy trade representative in the Reagan administration and the treasurer of Bob Dole’s 1996 presidential campaign."

  • Brian-NJ

    "Nice to make your acquaintance, Brian.

    What do you think about Clinton's and Obama's rhetoric on NAFTA?"


    -Sanjiv


    I think its politics at its finest. To my knowledge, (medium awareness to the campaign trail) neither has said specifically that they want to dissolve it or change it in such a way that would be detrimental, the beauty of politics, they said nothing but said it all. Hillary said she wanted to change it to make it work better for the people who were ill effected by it, but what does that mean? She won't do anything to it, maybe set up a job training adjustment program, but individuals will have to prove they lost a job due to free trade. The dems are not idiots, just ramping up the rhetoric like the conservative right does with their fear campaign on terrorism, xenophobic fight on immigrants, or the revolving d/war on drugs. I will be shocked if Hillary makes drastic measures, slight reform maybe. Remember however, I said I was a liberal, not a democrat! (well I vote for them sometimes) So in conclusion I am not worried about the next democrat president shaking up NAFTA because it is not going to happen.

  • Python

    Oops. Jams dropped an 'e', and I added two - 'gentelemen' = 'gentleman'

  • jpm

    Well, I guess I'll vote for Obama. After all, according to Brian, he is only lying about his position on trade. Brian knows Obama will be good inspite of what Obama says his position is LOL!

  • vidyohs

    "The guy worked for Ronald Reagan and Bob Dole.

    Posted by: Corey | Mar 6, 2008 8:37:06 PM"


    Does this prove he is capable of rational thinking; or, does it prove he worked for Ronald Reagan and Bob Dole?


    The latter does not rationally prove the former.

  • Corey

    To vidyohs:


    I didn't claim he (the author of the nytimes piece) was capable of rational thinking. Quite the opposite. Of course he's wrong about free trade. The point was that you used this person (a conservative) to attack rational thinking in politics, but the way you worded it - "Rational thinking is in such short supply these days particularly on the left" - made it sound like you were attacking this person for being on the left. He's clearly not on the left. That was the point I was making.




    If you wanted to attack the lack of rationality on the left, you could have done it in the comments section of numerous other posts, just not this one. This was a conservative attacking free trade, not a liberal.



    I'm not sure if 'liberal' is the best term for me, but I tend to vote Democratic (mainly for social and church/state separation reasons). Like Brian, I also whole-heartedly support free trade, and I doubt either Barack or Hillary will do much to harm free trade.

  • Corey

    @ Python:


    The point I was trying to make was that this NYTimes article was being held up as another example of irrational thinking on the left, when it was clearly written by someone on the right. That's all.


    On a broader note- I think it's narrow minded to think that good economic policy is an inherently 'liberal' or 'conservative' thing. Nearly all thinking people can agree that free trade is beneficial for nearly all parties involved (in fact, in the long run, everyone benefits from trade). I don't get why this should be considered the intellectual property of one party or another. This is why I get disgusted with our political system. I'm convinced Barack Obama is an intelligent person, and as an intelligent person he probably sees the benefits of free trade.


    What's depressing is that he has to go to Ohio and say that trade has devastated that state, when all economic data says otherwise.


    I find it a bit depressing to be 21 and already disillusioned about our political process. Please, someone give me something to be hopeful about.

  • Hans Luftner

    I find it a bit depressing to be 21 and already disillusioned about our political process. Please, someone give me something to be hopeful about.


    Disillusionment is a good thing. You're discarding your illusions. You could be hopeful about becoming even more disillusioned.


    I wish when I was twenty-one I had been as disillusioned as you are.

  • FreedomLover

    I was disillusioned by 18. Now I'm downright cranky and crotchety at 31. For me the default position is that any politician is an utter scumbag until 100% proven otherwise.

  • Python

    "Please, someone give me something to be hopeful about."


    The future will have many wonderful innovations, you will have the opportunity to learn many more things after the age of 21 than you did before, you will probably have a much better life than your ancestors, etc.


    Disillusionment in politicians doesn't mean disillusionment in your future or mankind. Power corrupts, we have corrupt leaders, it's natural.


    If you hang around this site enough, you'll see most of us don't talk in terms of liberal or conservative. There are many more dimensions of politics.

  • Disillusioned or enlightened?

    It's all in how you look at it.


    Better to be disillusioned than 'illusioned'.

  • Gil

    Maybe a problem here is that free trade can have two meanings:


    1. Laissez-faire markets.


    2. International trade where there are little to no tariffs in the way. I'm remember reading in one book that reckoned that tariffs under 5% per good was considered close enough to be free trading.


    Still, is Utilitarianism a good thing or bad thing? Does it matter if people who lost their jobs from outsourcing and automated machines can't find jobs anyway? It's not the owners' problem, their problem is to maximise revenues and minimise expenses and keep investors happy. A good historical example is that of equine unemployment thanks to the introduction of motor vehicles. The unemployment was such that horses couldn't find employment and as such the horse population dwindled to the number required for horse racing, pets and occasional rural workers. But we wouldn't listen to horses complain that they'd be out of a job thanks to motor vehicles, let alone withhold progress, would we? So even if workers can't find jobs or jobs as well paying as the ones they lost then so what? Isn't their problem after all?

  • Hans Luftner

    I read somewhere that there's more horses now than ever. So thanks to a rising standard of living, horse unemployment is way down, & I'll bet they work less & frolic more & are much better cared for.

  • vidyohs

    Corey,


    "If you wanted to attack the lack of rationality on the left, you could have done it in the comments section of numerous other posts, just not this one. This was a conservative attacking free trade, not a liberal.

    Posted by: Corey | Mar 6, 2008 11:05:41 PM"


    ---


    Look up the words assumption, presumption, and supposition in the dictionary, please.


    "Rational thinking is in such short supply these days particularly on the left."


    You make the assumption I am accusing Lighthizer of being a lefty, when in fact my statement about rational thinking being in short supply is a general statement applicable to all of any persuasion(Lighthizer) and I then specifically target a group (lefties).


    I do not like to automatically insult people so I make the assumption that everyone can read and comprehend, sadly enough 'tis not so.


    "I find it a bit depressing to be 21 and already disillusioned about our political process. Please, someone give me something to be hopeful about.

    Posted by: Corey | Mar 6, 2008 11:13:56 PM"


    Corey,

    You'll be stuck, mired, wallow, in lefty thinking until you learn to turn this kind of "thinking" around. "Someone 'give' me somthing to be hopeful about.


    Why do you have to be given anything? Go make your own hope, Barack isn't going to 'give' you hope. No politician is. You generate your own hope based on what you see and think.


    Let's put it this way, if you are waiting for someone to 'give' you hope, then you aren't ever going to have hope.


  • brian

    Funny, I know a whole lot of liberals, and I have yet to meet one who's in favor of free trade. What's this guy been smokin'? Free trade reefer?


    Hi, I'm Brian (different Brian from Brian-NJ), I'm a liberal utilitarian, and I'm also wholeheartedly in support of free trade.


    As for Obama rhetoric, I'll direct you to the Goolsbee comment. As for Clinton, I don't particularly like her, but I don't expect her to dismantle NAFTA in any real way.


    By the way, if you're interested in meeting more of us free-trade liberal, I'd also like to refer you to a strong majority of the economics mainstream establishment. From Bryan Caplan's paper:


    "economists [are] slightly more left-leaning and likely to be Democrats or independents than average" (p. 17-18)


    and on a table on the same page (p. 18) he shows that, even controlling for ideology, economists show strong support for free trade, much moreso than the general public.


    There you have it. The median economist is liberal who support free trade, according to Bryan Caplan.





  • brian

    I don't know vidyohs, it seemed obvious to me that you were calling the author a "lefty," since you were talking about him lacking rationality, then bemoaned this lack of rationality among people like him.

  • vidyohs

    Brian,


    You've identified yourself as a liberal, so I make the obvious observation that nothing is obvious to you. If things were obvious to you then obviously you wouldn't be a lefty.


    Thank you very much.

  • vidyohs

    BTW Brian,


    Which takes precedence in the crunch the utilitarian or the liberal.


    It's like a politician saying, "I am a social liberal, and a fiscal conservative."


    Oxymoron, you can't have it both ways. When the crunch comes the poltician will inevitiably reveal himself to be a social liberal and a fiscal liberal.


    Thank you very much.

  • vidyohs

    Corey,


    I hope you are still browsing the blog, because my response above was not complete and I'd like to helpfully expand.


    (Just a week ago I was downloading some music and I pulled down the Eagle's hit "Git over it", and it is just as appropriate today as it was when it was released. You should look it up and listen to the lyrics.)


    You're looking for hope, that is a good thing. I suggest you conduct your search in the objective mode.


    Liberals, socialist, communists, democrats, progressives et. al. are guilty of what I was taught is "stinkin' thinkin'" If you were taught by 'stinker thinkers' then you are going to likely be a 'stinker thinker'. As long as you move mentally and physically in those circles it will be near impossible to straighten out your head and get rid of that stinkin' thinkin'.


    Stay away from negative people who always talk in terms of victimization and need.


    By reading this blog you're making a good objective move, albeit a small one. When reading this blog, don't fixate on the lefty trolls and their stinkin' thinkin', concentrate on the smart ones whose expressed ideas parallel the host's if not duplicate.


    But you need to do more to get rid of that "I can't do it on my own" internal rhetoric and replace it with some "Get out of the goddamn way and let me do it" type thinking.


    How?


    There is no stinkin' thinkin' in the mind of a good successful salesman. Even if a career in sales is the fartherest thing from your mind and your dreams (it was in mine), what the saleman knows and how he thinks about each day, each incident, each situtation, and how to handle those is the most important thing you'll ever learn.


    What you learn from those masters at sales is attitudes and techniques you can take to any field and brighten your life while propelling your success.


    So begin your objective search for hope by either enrolling in a good sales course, or do it on your own by going to your library and looking for material, books and audio tapes, by the master Zig Ziglar. Follow up with people like Brian Tracy, Napoleon Hill, and a vast array of others. Yes they all do or did motivational speaking and teaching their hard gained knowledge, and it is not cheap rhetoric that they give out it is sound ideas and practices.


    You can make your own hope.


    I can't help but sound preachy here, but i sincerely believe this. Corey, there are at least two things you can not escape in life.

    First is self responsibility, and the second is self interest.


    Every single one of us does what we do for our own self and no one else. If the reward for your action is not felt by yourself then you will lose motivation to do it.


    No one can compel you to move or act, each action you take under any circumstance is done through your own control. You can not escape responsibility for the results of your actions or your lack of action.


    While in uniform I learned the hard way that some one can assume your duty, but never your responsibility. What does that mean?


    Say, a task is assigned to you and clearly made your responsibility, one for which, the completion of, you will have to ultimately answer for. A situation may arise where you have conflicting schedules or desires so you ask another of your group who is capable of performing the task to do it for you, and he expresses willingness to do so. You go fulfill your other desire and your substitute who has assumed your duty for the task, screws it up.


    Your superiors are not going to be looking at your substitute for answers, it will be you that has to answer. He took your duty but never your responsibility.


    If you understand this, then you will erase the word 'excuse' from your head forever. There are no excuses, there are only reasons.


    How does this apply to liberal vs conservative (not neocon - true conservative capitalist thought)? Corey it is simple, if you are honest and objectively think over liberal ideas you will find that they are all built on the foundation of 'excuse', denial of self responsibility, and denial of self interest.


    Ayn Rand, in response to a question about how best to help the poor, said, "Don't be one".


    Some may think that that was a toss-off answer and they would be dead wrong. It is actually very profound however brief.


    Say you are isolated in a group of ten men, eight of whom or reasonably prosperous and two who are poor and need help. You are one of the two. Okay, two men living off the charity of eight.


    You, as one of the two, become ashamed of taking charity and begin to redouble your efforts to prosper. You watch all of the eight and begin to think like them, work like them, talk like them, and in short order you find yourself like them in that you are now able to be self sufficient, and even able to contribute to the charity going to the last one, 'the poor'.


    By taking Ayn Rand's advice what have you done for the 'poor'?


    You've removed yourself from the list, you are no longer a burden to your fellow man, and last you are even able to contribute to the possible salvation of the last in that he can see your example and possibly feel enough shame that he too begins the upward climb out of poverty.


    Her answer was possibly the best advice one could give.


    Corey, you can make your own hope. Just get away from the hopeless and start hanging out with the makers and doers of humanity.


    Okay, down off the soapbox I go. Got to go add to my cash box of hope.

  • Matt C.

    Long live the Luddites!

  • muirgeo

    Oh yeah this "free trade" is just working wonders along with Reaganomics and generalized deregulation of our financial institutions things are just looking GREAAAAT!!!.


    Some of todays headlines; (All but one from todays FT)


    Fed expands auctions to tackle liquidity pressures


    US household wealth declines


    Muirgeo's portfolio down 10%


    Surprise fall in jobs fuels US recession fears


    Dollar sinks lower after US payrolls number


    Despite Fed Assurances, Stagflation Fears Grow


  • muirgeo

    Ayn Rand, in response to a question about how best to help the poor, said, "Don't be one".


    Some may think that that was a toss-off answer and they would be dead wrong. It is actually very profound however brief.


    Posted by: vidyohs




    It's not profound, its' idiotic. Tell that to the newborn ghetto baby. Yeah, what a stupid mistake on his part. What the hell was he thinking.

  • Whatever it seems silly to discuss what conservatives and liberals of gone times would do in times when conservatives and liberals are not what they used to be, among other because they live in a different time… and their opponent has moved.


    No matter how much some get a kick of dressing up to the occasion this is not about some unmovable First World War trenches.


    As I have too often found a reason to say in my own country (Venezuela) if anyone wants to get out of a mess he is much better of looking at where he wants to be than to where he has been; and there is not even a single comma about that in the article.

  • Lee Kelly

    muirgeo,


    It is an unfortunate fact that not everyone born into this world can be so in equally fortunate circumstances. There are some who are born to poor parents, suffer physical disabilities, mental deficits, or are even, perhaps, not born with a set of genes condusive to the development of intelligence, attractiveness, or a likable personality. However, it does not follow from this fact that a third-party (so often "the forgotten man" in politics), should be obligated--forced by government thugs, and the voters who sponser them, to equalise these circumstances, which third-parties like yourself find unpalatible.


    Moreover, muirgeo, and I want you to pay extra special close attention here: it does not follow, that because someone opposes the particular policies that you prefer, that they therefore must not care about inequality and poverty. I really want you to read that over and over again until it sinks in, so that you can recite it on command, because it is so important.


    The issue is not whether inequality and poverty are good or bad, but rather, what is the best method of dealing with inequality and poverty? The majority of people who post here would argue against your preferred policies as a means of remedying these problems, because they do not consider the abrogation of liberty, the expansion of state powers, and the subsidisation of self-destructive attitudes and behaviours, to do anything but perpetuate the problems. It is not just a matter of choosing policies which sound good and making them reality, because reality, in the words of Thomas Sowell, is not optional.


    In more cynical moods, I half suspect that you are more concered with that "ghetto baby" understanding how much you care, than their actual well-being.

  • save_the_rustbelt

    Academic economists do not need to be practical or pragmatic because they can sit in their offices reading papers and pontificiating.


    This is why I compare academic economists to sports writers - all talk, no game. They let somebody else do the working and sweating.

  • FreedomLover

    save_the_rustbelt:


    Do you have anything useful to say other the the usual left-wing spew? Too bad union jobs are going down the drain.

  • Methinks

    So far, all rustbelt and muirgeo seem to be capable of is spew. In rustbelt's words - all talk no game.


    I'm still waiting for rustbelt's definition of "wall street" and how it benefits if the rest of the economy doesn't. I suspect that I'll be waiting as long as Python will wait for muirduck to explain the one meter per person claim - an eternity.

  • Matt C.

    What is too bad is that rustbelt and muirgeo confuse government interference with "free market failures."


    Most of muirgeo's headlines of the day were caused by the Fed interference in the supply of money. Last time I checked they were a government entity, with the supposed cloak of independence.

  • Behold, the straw man slayer has arrived.

  • Stretch

    Read this on my flight yesterday and was hoping you'd comment on it. This was my favorite:


    "Modern free traders, on the other hand, embrace their ideal with a passion that makes Robespierre seem prudent. They allow no room for practicality, nuance or flexibility. They embrace unbridled free trade, even as it helps China become a superpower."


    Yes, modern free traders are just like Roberspierre, except without that whole Reign of Terror thing. Nice equivocation, though.


    Also, regardless of one's feelings about China, Lighthizer clearly believes that American trade policy should actively prevent China from becoming a superpower. Never mind about the benefits American consumers can take advantage of because of trade with China, and certianly ignore whatever increasing standards of living millions of poor Chinese receive through trade with us.


  • Corey

    @ vidyohs:


    While I’d like to give you the benefit of the doubt, you insult me and my intelligence while making the very same mistakes you wrongly criticize me of making.


    First:


    “I find it a bit depressing to be 21 and already disillusioned about our political process. Please, someone give me something to be hopeful about.”


    Let me clarify: I meant to say that I have little faith in our political system. That’s it. That’s it. There are many other areas (specifically science and economics) that I put my faith (of course, faith that is based in reason and empirically sound, not religious faith) in.


    Also, that was more of a throwaway line at the end of a rant about how depressing it is that politicians have to lie and be intellectually dishonest just to get elected. I did not intend to actually ask someone to give me hope (although some of the answers in the subsequent posts were insightful).


    Second:


    When you make a post that especially attacked liberals, the implication is that you’re attacking the author for being a liberal. Whether or not you actually meant to do that is irrelevant. In my initial post in response to you, I did not make the assumption (thanks for telling me to look up those big words, my tiny, independent (not liberal) mind didn’t know what they meant) that you were in fact insulting the NYTimes piece author for being liberal, only that this comments section was not the appropriate forum for doing so, since the author was clearly a conservative.

  • Corey,

    Vidyohs is a bit of a pontificating crank with whom I, nonetheless, generally agree.


    Please, let's not get into who said/meant what.


    As I said earlier, disillusionment is merely a negative view of enlightenment.

    It's a bit like finding out the truth about Santa Claus. It's not what you learn, but that you had spent so much time believing wrongly that gives one a sense of betrayal.


    'They lied to me!'

  • muirgeo

    "However, it does not follow from this fact that a third-party (so often "the forgotten man" in politics), should be obligated--forced by government thugs, and the voters who sponser them, to equalise these circumstances, which third-parties like yourself find unpalatible."

    Lee Kelly




    Lee,


    Of all the stuff your side throws at me this is the hardest one for me to resolve or dispute.


    The fact is we live in an enlightened society. No matter how much guys like you won't admit it we MUST have a social contract. Starting with ideas of using a common currency, to establishing a military and to having a patent office and roads.


    Your argument above fails because you have to choose between anarchy or a social contract. Assuming you don't want anarchy then I or some one else can use your argument above against things like a treasury or a patent office. Welfare is no different except in your eyes.


    If the purpose of society is to maximally benefit its members then the best way to decide how to do so is by letting its members decide. Or at least that's what we've decided via our constitution as well as general societal consent.


    You come down against representative democracy in favor of what I still can not tell. I presume people like you favor Corporate Oligarchy... I'm just not sure what.


    Finally, there's some truth to your claims of my interest in the poor. My concerns for them are at least partly out of self interest. The idea is that if the rest of society does better so will I. But if you claim that humans really have no capacity for empathy and everything we do is simply out of self-interest then nothing really matters does it?


  • muigeo,


    What is the social contract?


    After you answer, then we'll ask 9 others to state what they think the social contract is, then see if there is any unanimity.


    If the purpose of society is to maximally benefit its members then the best way to decide how to do so is by letting its members decide.


    The question is: how do they make the decision?


    Collectively, with all forced to go along with the decision, no matter how stupid or unjust, or via market action.

  • muirgeo

    Here is the text of NAFTA. Could one of you classic liberals tell me how this 1,000+ page document defines "Free trade". What is the definition of free trade?


    Further, could any one of you assure me that the complete text represents the best interest of the US citizens and absolutely needs no revisions as Barak might suggest.




    http://www.nafta-sec-alena.org/DefaultSite/inde...>

  • Methinks

    If the purpose of society is to maximally benefit its members


    "If", muirduck. But you're operating under a false premise - society has no pre-specified purpose. You are certainly not qualified to define the purpose of society for me or anyone else. You seem to be pretty ill-equipped to define it for yourself, in fact. Incidentally, the only way to "maximally benefit" the "members" of a society is to let them individually decide what what benefits them and what doesn't and to have the freedom to act in their own best interest. that's the optimal "social contract".


    My guess is that while you claim to have a vast interest in the poor, you actually have no interest in anything but massaging your own ego. If you truly had a deep interest in the poor, you would be volunteering to teach inner-city kids skills with which they can become more successful without your pathetic handouts. Of course, your interest in the poor ends with insisting on robbing productive members of society on behalf of the "poor" while taking a hefty chunk for yourself - just like the rest of your ilk. Theft is the socialist definition of "empathy".


    You're now free descend into your usual incoherent rants about Bush, Oligarchies, Laissez-faire, and claiming that you're not a communist because you don't know what a communist is.

  • Jay

    "No matter how much guys like you won't admit it we MUST have a social contract."


    Shall we assume God exists while we are at it? The prior sentence sounds like it might have been ripped from the Bible.


    "The fact is we live in an enlightened society."

  • Methinks

    Could one of you classic liberals tell me how this 1,000+ page document defines "Free trade". What is the definition of free trade?


    Yes, I'm sure someone could. But you would never in a million years understand the answer. So, why bother?


    Why don't you explain one of the million questions you've been asked and which you've completely ignored?

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