On Savings

by Don Boudreaux on June 5, 2008

in Balance of Payments, Economics, Myths and Fallacies, The Economy, Trade

One of our age’s truly great communicators of economics (as well as a first-rate economic scholar) is Steven Landsburg ("the Armchair Economist").  Steve’s review, in today’s Wall Street Journal, of Ronald Wilcox’s Whatever Happened to Thrift? is a gem.  Here’s a slice:

The tax code alone is reason to believe that Americans
don’t save enough. Mr. Wilcox offers a menu of other reasons, not all
of them convincing. He repeats the canard, popularized by Robert Frank
of Cornell University, that "keeping up with the Joneses" is a force
for excessive consumption. One could argue equally well that it is a
force for excessive saving. If I am trying to outshine the neighbors’
Mercedes, I might well decide to be extra frugal until I can afford a
Rolls Royce.

Mr. Wilcox makes another fundamental error when he
points to high foreign savings as a cause of excessive U.S.
consumption. When foreigners save, U.S. interest rates drop. This makes
it smart for Americans to consume more. "More" is not always the same as "excessive."

I add only a point that I’m certain that Steve agrees with, namely, the freer are trade and international capital flows, the less meaningful it is to speak of national rates of savings.  As a worker I care whether or not my employer is modernizing his operations to increase my productivity; I don’t care (or shouldn’t care) whether the savings used to finance such investments come from Dallas or from Dubai.  As a consumer, I care that savings is available to finance innovations and the production of attractive goods and services; I don’t care (or shouldn’t care)  — as long as trade is free — if any particular such investment takes place over here or over there, or about the nationalities of the persons who supply the savings to finance this and other investments.

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  • FreedomLover

    Nah, people would rather get easy credit to compete with the Joneses then saving the old fashioned way. That takes too much time. People must get that Beemer in 1 year!

  • FreedomLover

    Of course, it is imperative that individuals save money. However it would be very bad for the retail sector if that happened. I think we have to fundamentally rethink our economy that is so 100% spending based into one that's maybe only 80% spending based.

  • FreedomLover

    BTW to the blog owners, "remember personal info" dosn't work anymore.

  • rex pjesky

    Quoted from the review, as the reason why Wilcox does not endorse a consumption tax:


    "mostly born of his false assumption that any consumption tax must be levied at the point of sale. He worries, for example, that a consumption tax is necessarily nonprogressive."


    Here is my serious question: how did this guy get to write a book with such a serious error and lack of knowledge?


    Any undergraduate student in public finance learns that a consumption tax can be a "cash flow" tax and can be made as progressive with respect to income as the gov't wants.


    Moreover, even the tax is levied at the point of sale, the consumption tax can be made progressive with respect to income by excluding some things (like food) from the base. Holcombe and Sobel's reseach suggests that many point of sale consumption taxes are in fact progressive with respect to income.


    Again, how did this guy get a book deal to spout this stuff that is factually wrong and so utterly lacking in basic knowlege of subject matter?

  • FreedomLover

    rex:


    I'm not aware of any POS consumption taxes other then local/state sales tax. Care to elaborate?

  • The other Eric

    Thrift is a concept that thrives only in the absence of wealth. After more than one generation of wealth the need for thrift seems to disappear. Meanwhile, the message of 'anti-thrift' continues at a pace not slowed by mere talk of recessions... http://adage.com/mediaworks/article?article_id=...>

  • Chris

    There is a way in which I care where the saving is coming from:


    If my neighbor fails to save for his retirement, there is a decent chance that the government will pay at least a portion of what he needs. And, it will do by increasing taxes on me.


    To put it another way, if all the current senior citizens (and those approaching that age) had done a responsible job of saving for their own retirement, it would be much easier to make the case to end Social Security. As is, largely because the Baby Boomers have spent themselves into oblivion, it will probably be around until it collapses under its own weight.


    Don't get me wrong -- I don't think that the government SHOULD do this. But, it does, and is frankly unlikely to stop.

  • rex pjesky

    Freedomlover...there aren't any that I know of either.


    My point was H and S's research (other have looked at this as well) suggests that even a POS consumption tax can be progressive with respect to income.


    So this guy Wilcox is really irresponsible to reject them on the grounds that they must be regressive with respect to income.


  • R. Steven Cox

    It is my postulate that, predominately, members of our society apply a very high discount rate to the future: Discount rates are usually used in the context of financial decisions. But there is a subconscious discounting (at very high rates) in other areas of personal decision making. This is seen generally in the now mentality. It is manifest in a breakdown in personal relationships, bad health habits, sedentary life-style, obesity, and poor academic performance. There are probably a plethora of instances where this condition affects personal decisions -- any instance that calls for forbearance.

  • On savings:


    1. How much do personal savings rates fall when the economy has become prosperous and offers a plethora of choices to consume?


    2. How much do savings rates fall when workers are assured of financial security when they reach retirement?


    3. Since corporations never die, how much have savings rates switched from personal to corporate?


    4. Aren't we witnessing a new model for savings, based upon unprecedented prosperity, whereby future economic growth is financed by investing stockholders, not 'sacrificing' savings by labor?

  • FreedomLover

    Rex:


    By progressive POS consumption tax you mean a higher rate for things like luxury cars, high-end TVs, etc..?

  • kook

    a Duoist,


    A perfect recipe for a black swan event. Suddenly the consumers will jolted out of their complacency.

  • rex pjesky

    freedomlover...some states have POS sales taxes that are progressive with respect to income (they are all still flat taxes with respect to the consumption tax base, whatever that is). But many states exempt certain items from the base that the poor typically spend relatively large amounts of their income on. These exemptions make the the tax prorgessive (again, with respect to income.)


    Many states exempt food and perscription drugs from the sales tax base. This makes the POS sales tax progressive with respect to income, even though the tax is flat with respect to the consumption tax base.

  • Ironic that the same people who equivocate an American flag with bald jingoistic symbolism also tend to condescend to Joe Sixpack with such scare tactics as "The foreigners are taking your jobs, your money and your standard of living."

  • mark seery

    "..the less meaningful it is to speak of national rates of savings."


    Are you not calling in to question the whole concept of macroeconomics at this point? Perhaps not things like aggregate expenditure and output but at least all the nationalistic measures.

  • Dear professor,


    I heard twice from you now (once before in an econtalk podcast) how few you care about current account and capital account, who cares where the financing is coming from right?


    The problem with this argument is that it fails to see that for other countries like argentina a negative current account and a volatile capital account are a receip for failure. The US could in the future loose its stable capital account. So internal savings do matter. borrowing money to buy shirts from china also doesn't seem like a great investment.


    Best.

  • Keith

    Why don't people save more? You get taxed on the interest. You get taxed on the capital gains. The value of cash continually depreciates. When you die (maybe tomorrow, so a fat lot of good all that saving does), more taxes.


    What don't you understand.

  • vidyohs

    Put simply, could we say that America has adopted the socialist plan that our fellow man is our "savings" upon which we will rely as we can no longer produce for ourselves?


    The socialist plan doesn't require a personal wealth reserve to exist, our fellow man will provide living expenses including medical.


    Why save cash or its equivilant?

  • kook

    The reason why we don't save more, is because of the artificially low interest rates perpetrated on us, mainly by the Fed and also by other non-market forces like global central banks.

  • Babinich

    kook says: "The reason why we don't save more, is because of the artificially low interest rates perpetrated on us, mainly by the Fed and also by other non-market forces like global central banks."


    I'll take it one step farther. The reason people do not save is due to a lack of discipline and vision.

  • FreedomLover

    Everyone can save, they just have to live within their means and have a little left over after each paycheck. It accumulates. It takes discipline and patience.

  • jpm

    Not true, freedomlover, not true.



    The half of America that are voting for Obama can't save. The half of America that are so inept that they are voting for McCain can't possibly have enougn foresight to save.

  • Martin Brock

    When foreigners save, U.S. interest rates drop. This makes it smart for Americans to consume more.

    Creditors may soon foreclose on Ed McMahon's castle in Beverly Hills. When foreign "investors" bought the mortgage backed security financing Ed's mortgage, they expected repayment, but Ed can't repay them, and I'm not sure he's supporting Obama. Needless to say, the Bushtapo can't repay the trillions they've borrowed recently either, and they don't much care, because it's now spent and somehow increases the account balances of their cronies, but that's another story.


    Credit by definition pays for services expected to be rendered in the future. It is not a charitable contribution to the consumption of the borrower, not deliberately anyway. Was Ed "smart" to borrow millions he ultimately couldn't repay to buy a castle in Beverly Hills? Sure, he was. He's lived in a castle for years without paying for it, and that's apparently what he wanted to do. Thomas Jefferson did the same thing centuries ago, and I suppose he outsmarted his creditors too. Was Dick Cheney smart to channel billions to his buddies in the military-industrial complex after receiving tens of millions from them for his personal account? Yeah. He's smart too.


    So the question now is: have we accepted the credit of smart foreigners reinvesting earnings from the U.S. back into the U.S. in recent decades, or have we outsmarted them with blissful ignorance of their expectation of a return? Is the credit crisis limited to home mortgage finance, or is it more widespread? Will the Federal Treasury/Federal Reserve bail out investors by substituting its credit for McMahon's, i.e. did Bear Sterns finance McMahon's mortgage somehow?


    Will taxpayers really bear this burden as taxpayers, or will foreigners handed more dollars simply bid up the dollar-denominated price of oil and thus the price of gasoline and other goods in the U.S.? Or will we allow McMahon's creditors to take a loss rather than dividing the loss among all U.S. citizens somehow?


    Isn't that the question?


    And if foreigners take the loss and decide not to extend us as much credit in the future, can we reorganize ourselves to produce for ourselves what we previously consumed from them, albeit at higher cost? We have one of the richest and most developed economies on Earth, so we can produce practically anything at some cost as a practical matter, but that's not the question. The question is: have we now passed a law against it? Have we sold foreigners monopoly rights to produce what we expect to consume?


  • Martin Brock

    The socialist plan doesn't require a personal wealth reserve to exist, our fellow man will provide living expenses including medical.

    Why save cash or its equivilant?



    Cash or a cash equivalent (an entitlement to cash like a Treasury note) is never a personal wealth reserve. Cash is not wealth. It's an accounting device. A personal wealth reserve is something like a house to which you hold clear title, although this wealth is really "personal" only insofar as no one can take it from you, and the title is only another account of the state's willingness to defend your possession.


    Isn't your "personal wealth reserve" a monthly check from the Federal government? And you say you file no income tax return. Aren't income taxes withheld from your check?


  • Babinich

    Martin Brock says:


    "Cash or a cash equivalent (an entitlement to cash like a Treasury note) is never a personal wealth reserve. Cash is not wealth."


    Cash, or a monetary reserve, is a component of wealth. The other component is the assets held by the individual.


    These assets are further divided into personal and business assets.

  • vidyohs

    Poor martinduck,


    Another invitation to "roun' the mulberrybush". Naw, no thanks. If you only knew half of what you think you know you'd be ahead of Einstein as a figure of reverence. However, it is still ducksville for you.


    "Cash is not wealth. It's an accounting device."


    What we call cash, Federal Reserve Notes (FRN) are instruments of debt. That is why they are labelled "notes". We only exchange debt when we use them.


    Black Law Dictionary 7th Ed.


    NOTE, n 1. A written promise by one party (the maker) to pay money to another party (the payee) or to bearer. - A note is a two-party negotiable instrument unlike a draft (which is a three-party instrument).


    "A personal wealth reserve is something like a house to which you hold clear title,"


    I have further news for you duckie, you also will find it extremely rare that anyone in the USA ever holds "clear title" to their home or land even after "paying" off their note, or securing the land via total cash buy. That is why you will continue to pay taxes on it even after obtaining "clear title". If you actually owned it, you wouldn't pay taxes on it.


    After obtaining your "clear title" all you have done is secure exclusive use of the land or home, the state still owns it and can take it at any time they choose.

  • vidyohs

    Just have patience folks, the internet is slowly killing the IRS. Instead of working individually through massive amounts of paper, it is all available on line, searchable, and subject to coordinated group attack. And, that is happening.


    For you martinduck since you brought up the subject of tax again here on this thread.

    ------------------------------------------


    Well in a closing note, this went exactly where I said it would back at the beginning.


    STRB (chuckle) can not produce or document the exact law requiring an income tax to paid upon your even exchange of service for fruits of labor no more than, as I said, can any other tax professional, IRS agent, or Treasury dept. official.


    Bruce,


    for you. You might try looking at:

    http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.p...>
    and


    http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.p...>
    and


    http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.p...>

    Bruce, you have to realize one thing, the IRS is not going to tell you or give you a hint of anything that contradicts your anecdotal, presumptive, and conventional wisdom belief that you owe an income tax. Not on their website or in their phamptlets; and you won't find anything on sites sycophantic to the IRS, H.R.Block et. al.


    Again you might also go to truthattack.org and look at Tom Cryer's winning arguments.


    I am not telling anyone not to pay a lawful tax, I am only saying we should all know and understand what is lawful and what is fraudulent.




    Posted by: vidyohs | Jun 7, 2008 11:19:09 AM

  • Martin Brock

    Cash, or a monetary reserve, is a component of wealth. The other component is the assets held by the individual.

    These assets are further divided into personal and business assets.



    Obviously, you may use words however you like. If Ben Bernanke writes higher figures in his ledger, you may call that "greater wealth", and if I write some figures on paper, you may call that wealth too, but I consider both uses of this word confusing, so I'll stick with a different standard.


  • Martin Brock

    What we call cash, Federal Reserve Notes (FRN) are instruments of debt. That is why they are labelled "notes". We only exchange debt when we use them.

    They're notes accounting for credit. When you accept money (or currency) for your produce, you accept a note accounting for the value of your produce, crediting you with this value and entitling you to something of similar value currently. If you want to hold something of similar value currently instead of the money, you need to exchange the money for something else currently, because values change over time.



    After obtaining your "clear title" all you have done is secure exclusive use of the land or home, the state still owns it and can take it at any time they choose.

    Like I said, it's "personal wealth" only as long as someone else can't take it from you. Your selective attention is showing again.


    Isn't your "personal wealth reserve" a monthly check from the Federal government? And you say you file no income tax return. Aren't income taxes withheld from your check?


    Denying reality often feels good, but it's still denying reality.


  • vidyohs

    Martin duckie,


    "Denying reality often feels good, but it's still denying reality."

    Posted by: Martin Brock | Jun 7, 2008 12:58:27 PM


    Pull a FRN out of your wallet and look, it has in writing "Federal Reserve Note" and I gave you this:

    "Black's Law Dictionary 7th Ed.


    NOTE, n 1. A written promise by one party (the maker) to pay money to another party (the payee) or to bearer. - A note is a two-party negotiable instrument unlike a draft (which is a three-party instrument)."


    and you want to talk to me about denying reality? There is the official legal defintion of the term "note" and as usual you think your defintion is what is going to prevail in court. It is to laugh!




    "Isn't your "personal wealth reserve" a monthly check from the Federal government? Aren't income taxes withheld from your check?


    Posted by: Martin Brock | Jun 7, 2008 12:58:27 PM"


    The answer is no to both questions and reveals that you know even less about the subject of income tax than I suspected.


    "And you say you file no income tax return."

    Posted by: Martin Brock | Jun 7, 2008 12:58:27 PM


    Duckie, that's no secret; but trust me I am provided the opportunity to communicate with the loving caring folks at the IRS on a regular basis. They lie, attempt fraud, threaten, attempt coercion, and offer me regular opportunities to "make an appointment with a tax court (LOL); while I return to them their own correspondence with the reasons I am rejecting it and my reasons as I have stated here before are based upon jurisdiction not whether what I receive in exchange for my labor can be called income or not.


    I have a ruling from a federal district judge that says the IRS can not ever claim that I need to keep books and records for them to examine or to justify any of my financial dealing, I stumbled into that little victory back the spring of 2001. That pretty much soldifies for me that there has never been an actual law requiring that, or else I wouldn't have that order from the court in my records.


    You see duckie, my friends and I had discovered that there actually is no law requiring the keeping of books or records but making that stick in a IRS tamed federal court is difficult, and I just lucked out and had a federal asst dist atty that screwed up and admitted on the record in my court appearance that they recognized that I do not keep them and had no real answer to that.


    Trust me, the IRS knows who I am and where I live, and some day they may come with guns and men to take me away; but, it won't be because of application of the law, it will be because of misapplication of the law much like the Soviets did with their dissenters. But, that won't happen now until they at least charge me in a federal court with some sort of criminal or civil offense, and that hasn't happened in the 20 plus years I have been out here. You see they can't get a legal levy unless they take me to federal court and obtain a judge's authorization (signature), which means I have the opportunity to appear and make my case. For a judge to rule against me, he will have to go against the 13th amendment, and that fact is borne out by the informative facts that I have been passing for the last four days.


    Law can not compel performance.


    Long ago I recognized that there really is such a thing as a "stupid" question.


    The question is usually expressed this way:

    "Mr. So-and-so doesn't pay any income taxes, how can we make him pay like we do?"


    That is just such a stupid stupid question.


    An intelligent question would be: "Mr. So-and-so doesn't pay an income tax like I do, I wonder if he will teach me what he knows and does?" (The answer is, I won't. I will only point you to the sources of information and you can go learn on your own and gain belief on your own. That is the only thing that will overcome your fear of getting off your knees and becoming a free man.)


    So far the patrons of this cafe haven't thought to ask the intelligent question, duckie, especially you.


    The really crazy thing to me is the fear.


    It seems no one recognizes yet that people in this country who believe themselves to be prefectly innocent law-abiding folk can, without warning, go through what the Weaver family did at Ruby Ridge, the Branch Davidians did at Mt. Caramel, Tex, the family of Elian Gonzales did in Miami, and countless others who have been rousted out of bed in the middle of the night by uniformed thugs to be shot dead, their homes ransacked, loved ones thrown out into the street in their sleepwear, or naked, all because someone didn't check the address correctly (happens way more often than you'd want to believe).


    That has been done, is being done, and will continue to be done with your money as long as you're afraid to stand on your hind legs and say "no more".

  • Martin Brock

    The answer is no to both questions and reveals that you know even less about the subject of income tax than I suspected.

    So I'm mistaken that you're a military pensioner?


  • vidyohs

    martinduckie,


    You're a dense little duckie.


    "Isn't your "personal wealth reserve" a monthly check from the Federal government? Aren't income taxes withheld from your check?

    Posted by: Martin Brock | Jun 7, 2008 12:58:27 PM"


    Yes I draw a military pension, and the answer to both questions is still no.


    W o u l d y o u l i k e m e t o r e p e a t t h a t r e a l s l o w?


    T h e a n s w e r t o b o t h q u e s t i o n s is s t i l l n o.


    LOL, you'll kill yourself before you open your mind and see what is right before you.

  • Eric

    Quit it with the ad homs. This is ridiculous.

  • vidyohs

    People who refuse to think and want everything poured into their brain are ridiculous. But that is what we have wound up with thanks to the socialist seizure of the education system.


    In the meantime, ad hoc, ad homs, ad libs, ad vertise, ad verb, ad jective, and ad ios!

  • vidyohs

    Think on this, in relation to my past posts.


    28 USC 3002

    (15) "United States" means -


    (A) a Federal corporation;


    (B) an agency, department, commission, board, or other entity of the United States; or


    (C) an instrumentality of the United States.


    Ahhh gee! What United States are you giving allegiance too?


    Gosh, would that mean that the Uniform Commercial Code has more to do with your daily life than the U.S.Code?


    Wow, would that mean that what you were taught was a nation is just really a commercial corporation?


    Did that corporation have anything to do with the creation of the land upon which you were born? Did that corporation contribute anything to your conception and birth?


    Where has the real United States of the Articles of Confederation gone?


    Just so much to discover!

  • Martin Brock

    Yes I draw a military pension, and the answer to both questions is still no.

    So your check from the Federal government isn't monthly? Is that it? Or maybe you have direct deposit? Income taxes aren't withheld because the amount is below the threshold for income taxation? Feel free to elaborate.

  • vidyohs

    Martinduck,


    "Isn't your "personal wealth reserve" a monthly check from the Federal government? Aren't income taxes withheld from your check?

    Posted by: Martin Brock | Jun 7, 2008 12:58:27 PM"


    One question is nothing but a reflection of your own personal bias as you have shown through previous statements, a bias founded in ignorance I might add.


    The second question is a reasonable question.


    The answer to both is no.

  • Martin Brock

    Your entitlement to tax revenue is not a matter of my bias. It's a matter of your entitlement to tax revenue. If no court says that you owe income taxes, then you don't, but that's a separate issue.

  • Ron Wilcox

    It is interesting to come across blog comments that are entirely detached from the data on what should otherwise be a reasonable site -- dedicated to the venerable work of Hayek. I wrote the book in question here. I support consumption taxes and the book is unambiguous about that. Some of the posts here demonstrate the danger of only reading second hand information instead of primary source material.


    Ron Wilcox

  • Martin Brock

    Ron,


    I haven't read your book, but I like the idea of a progressive consumption tax, specifically a simpler progressive income tax with an unlimited allowance for tax deferred investment. Do you advocate this model?


    I also like what I understand to be your theory of our credit crisis, that we use credit too much to bring consumption forward rather than to purchase the means of future production and that we often do the former while pretending to do the latter.


    Since a home is a means of production fundamentally but also consumption on the margin, rising mortgage defaults, particularly on costlier homes, seems like evidence of "excessive" consumption to me. If there's another explanation, I'd like to know it. I suppose people could save to purchase the Jones' costlier house, rather than mortgaging it, but this saving doesn't create a credit crisis, so Landsburg's theory is less persuasive.


    I won't promise to read the book, because I already have three on my nightstand that I'm not reading, including one of Roberts'. I'd like to know your thoughts though. Maybe I'll buy the book and drop it on the stack at least.


  • Martin Brock

    I've only just read Landsburg's review of the book. Like most economic pundits, he comes across more like an investment adviser pitching conventional wisdom than like an economist. Maybe an S&P 500 index fund inevitably yields 8% adjusted for inflation over 40 years, but I'm skeptical of this assertion.


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