Jobs saved and counterfactuals

by Russ Roberts on November 11, 2009

in Stimulus

Krugman and DeLong have been attacking Mankiw and Meltzer for mocking the “jobs saved” metric of the Obama Administration. Here is Krugman:

Brad DeLong catches Allan Meltzer claiming that there’s something nonsensical about the Obama administration making estimates of jobs saved thanks to its policies. But it’s not just Meltzer — Greg Mankiw has done the same thing.

They should be ashamed of themselves.

The Obama administration’s “jobs created or saved” is just a way of saying “other things equal” in non-economese. Of course it makes sense to ask how many more people are working than would have been the case without a given policy — and every administration makes assertions along those lines. During the 2001 recession and its aftermath, how many times did the Bush administration claim that the recession would have been worse without its tax cuts? And while many of us quarreled with that claim, I don’t think I ever argued that other-things-equal arguments are nonsense on their face.

The willingness of conservative economists to fall in line behind such cheap shots says something sad about them, not about the Obama administration.

Yes, counterfactuals in economics are important. But they’re hard to do. Very hard to do and prone to bias. They’re a great place for faith-based econometrics.

Back in September when the administration claimed ONE MILLION jobs saved or created, this was the methodology:

Romer said the White House advisers came up with their estimate using two methods: An analysis of the law’s effect on the national economy and employment using historical data and another using a statistical model of the effects of tax cuts and government spending on job and economic growth. Independent economists’ estimates and data from other countries that implemented their own stimulus plans supported the administration’s conclusions, Romer said.

Does anyone (even Krugman or DeLong) think that the $100 billion or so of stimulus money that had been spent at that point had really saved or created one million jobs? (I’m ignoring the “tax cuts” which were mostly saved.)  It’s possible of course. But does anyone think that the claim of one million was the result of careful objective analysis to control for everything necessary it would take to measure the number of jobs that would exist in the absence of the stimulus? And it’s not even clear that the exercise is econometrically possible. Yes, economists try to estimate things like the multiplier and the estimates vary widely for purely statistical reasons and not just the challenge of measuring confidence say, or why all government spending is not alike or any of a myriad of other challenges.

Then there’s this lovely story from the Sacramento Bee:

Up to one-fourth of the 110,000 jobs reported as saved by federal stimulus money in California probably never were in danger, a Bee review has found.

California State University officials reported late last week that they saved more jobs with stimulus money than the number of jobs saved in Texas – and in 44 other states.

In a required state report to the federal government, the university system said the $268.5 million it received in stimulus funding through October allowed it to retain 26,156 employees.

That total represents more than half of CSU’s statewide work force. However, university officials confirmed Thursday that half their workers were not going to be laid off without the stimulus dollars.

“This is not really a real number of people,” CSU spokeswoman Clara Potes-Fellow said. “It’s like a budget number.”

Macro is hard to do. Pointing that out isn’t shameful.

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  • johnpapola
    The estimates for “jobs created or saved” are the ultimate example of “mark to model” fantasy land accounting. You know, the kind of give-me-a-break, clearly-too-rosy-and-self-serving calculation that was being used by banks to mask their real losses. As they say on the interweb… pot, meet kettle.
  • dan
    Can someone explain why the "created or saved" (or destroyed) argument for something as complex as this is not pure "witchcraft" in a world without time machines?
  • Ecommunist
    Russ, you already lost by tacitly conceding that "saving jobs" is useful.
  • What if they merely made a temporal trade, Fewer jobs lost now, more lost later?
  • Lindsay
    Thanks for posting this, Russ. I can only take Krugman's sanctimony and flagrant disregard for economic logic in small doses like this, but I've found it's important to keep up with his articles nonetheless: When I hear nonsense commentary on economics from non-economist academics, I find it's mostly coming from Krugman's last op-ed piece. (They'll blush if you suggest this at the end of your conversation. Try it -- it's fun.)
  • danielkuehn
    Krugman, Russ, and Mankiw all seem to be saying the same thing to me though - question the number, not the concept. Krugman is imaginging a disagreement with Mankiw and Russ is imagining a disagreement with Krugman. It seems to me they're all on the same page though - argue over the numbers, not the idea of counterfactuals. I can't speak for Meltzer - I haven't read what he's said on it.
  • danielkuehn
    Nobody is defending the administration's numbers. They're defending the concept of "created or saved" from the ridicule that's been heaped on it.

    And Mankiw has responded to them - he pointed out that he said he thinks the concept of "created or saved" was worthwhile - the Krugman critique of him in that sense was unjustified.

    What's jarring is how many people are heaping on "created and saved" as some kind of witchcraft. As you say, I have yet to see anyone defending the administration's numbers except for the administration.
  • Kevin
    Krugman talks about ceteris paribus without including jobs destroyed. He and the administration talk about and make up happy counterfactuals about jobs saved, but neither makes mention of jobs that would have existed but for the stimulus that do not exist because of the stimulus. This deserves to be ridiculed.

    On a related note, a big elephant in this room is that jobs are costs not benefits.
  • danielkuehn
    What do you mean without including jobs destroyed? Whenever he cites a multiplier it includes jobs destroyed (well, output destroyed in that particular case). Besides, I don't think he usually uses the "created or destroyed" nomenclature himself - he's just defending the concept of approaching it from the perspective of a counterfactual.
  • Kevin
    I have never seen anything from either Krugman or the administration about the jobs created or saved by this stimulus that acknowledges the counterfactual jobs destroyed by the stimulus, what Krugman "usually" does notwithstanding. He may be defending the concept of approaching it from the perspective of a counterfactual, but all the marketing I've seen is of selective counterfactuals. Perhaps I just haven't come across the administration's or Krugman's estimate of jobs destroyed by this stimulus?

    To be clear, the concept of comparison to counterfactuals is reasonable to me (acknowledging all the bias and subjectivity that is necessarily a part of quantifying them), and I am sure Krugman does a fine job fully considering them elsewhere in his work. I am commenting on the marketing of "created or saved" as "other things equal," when I have seen no evidence that any effort has been made on the part of the "created or saved" calculators either to acknowledge this netting or to actually hold other things equal.
  • Mommsen1625
    It looks a lot like witchcraft actually.
  • danielkuehn
    Nobody is defending the administration's numbers in this series of posts, I should say.
  • Mommsen1625
    Oh, let's point out the obvious; the Bush administration also used a lot of counterfactuals to justify the war in Iraq.

    Allowing politicians to use a weapon like to this is sure to get us in deep quick and hard.
  • danielkuehn
    OK, he used patriotism too - and he used patriotism much more effectively than he used counterfactuals. Should I quit saluting the flag as a result? Come on - when people use things badly you question it, you don't just abandon perfectly legitimate reasoning skills. The best counter to Bush (and the best counter currently to Obama) would be to furnish a more convincing counterfactual and point out the problems with theirs.
  • Mommsen1625
    Well, patriotism is the ideology of mass murderers. So I have little use for that as well.

    No, the best counter would be to deal with the actual results.
  • danielkuehn
    Hitler was a vegetarian - are we going to berate Gandhi now?

    The flag is salutable.
    Vegetables are delicious.
    Counterfactuals are rational.

    No need to fear mass murderers, mommsen1625
  • Actually yes, we should ban vegetarianism out right. =)
  • Mommsen1625
    Well, unlike liberals (Democrats) and conservatives (Republicans), we libertarians don't call for the ban of things due simply to our personal tastes. Well, there is also the paranoia and mass panic aspect to the pair above as well.
  • Mommsen1625
    I'd berate Gandhi for being a racist actually - well that and his habit of sleeping with young girls.

    Oh, and counterfactuals are irrational.

    No need to fear mass murderers, mommsen1625.

    Then you aren't terribly familiar with the history of the state.
  • danielkuehn
    Re: "Then you aren't terribly familiar with the history of the state."

    mm hmmm... says the person who used George Bush's warmongering as a reason to distrust thinking in terms of counterfactuals. I'm not sure you have the tightest grasp on what makes a state dangerous, mommsen1625.
  • Mommsen1625
    mm hmmm... says the person who used George Bush's warmongering as a reason to distrust thinking in terms of counterfactuals.

    Yes, as we are all aware the Bush administration's positions were very sound.

    I'm not sure you have the tightest grasp on what makes a state dangerous, mommsen1625.

    Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me.

    As for what makes the state dangerous, well, that ought to be obvious; human beings make the state dangerous. Which is why the discretion that Democrats and Republicans like to give to the state so problematic. But of course there is always the "strong man" impulse amongst Democrats and Republicans.
  • Mommsen1625
    It rather surprises me that economists put much stock in counter-factuals. Their use seems so prone to mischief.

    As for Krugman pointing out the Bush administration's claims, well, that to me would give me a lot of pause on the matter.
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