Friedman and Samuelson

by Russ Roberts on December 15, 2009

in Hubris and humility, Uncategorized

In this post by David Henderson on Samuelson’s passing, a commenter, gnat, says:

In “Animal Spirits” Akeroff quotes Samuelson as saying that Friedman had a point but often overstated it like a boy who learned how to spell the word banana but did not know where to stop.

I remember a similar quote attributed to Solow, referring to Friedman’s obsession with the money supply, that he (Solow) liked sex but he didn’t talk about it all the time. Or something like that.

I think Samuelson and Solow doth joke too much. There is a jeering, disdainful, immature element in both of those “jokes.” I wonder if Friedman was deeply discomfiting to them. He was a relentless critic of what underpinned their worldviews. He remade the profession in his own image and helped make “use markets” the default, at least for a while. He created what Dan Klein calls the “presumption of liberty.” Their lack of respect for someone who had been in the intellectual wilderness and who triumphed by virtue of his scholarship and his passion speaks volumes.

UPDATE: Pingry points out in the comments the correct Solow story:

Milton Friedman presented a paper at a conference, after which Robert Solow commented: “Another difference between Milton and myself is that everything reminds Milton of the money supply; well, everything reminds me of sex, but I try to keep it out of my papers.”

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  • Ludwig VAN DEN HAUWE
    Samuelson could be very flattering about Friedman. Thus in his foreword to Louis Bachelier´s Theory of Speculation (Princeton 2006) he calls Friedman a "truly great economist" and a "distinguished Nobelist and libertarian". (see p. ix)
  • Methinks1776
    Yuri Maltsev on Samuelson.

    http://blog.mises.org/archives/011235.asp

    When I was learning economics in the USSR in the 1970s Samuelson was the only Western economist whose textbook was translated into Russian. I remember his famous graph depicting dynamics of per capita GNP in the Soviet Union and the United States according to which the USSR would surpass the US in the standard of living by 1990. He frankly admitted to me that that was mistake. "Who could know that it was all fake?"

    Who could know it was all fake? Soviet emigre economists were telling him it was all fake by the 1970's.
  • danielkuehn
    I know you like to view things through your own experiences, and that's good, but we really can't evaluate Samuelson's legacy based solely on how realistic he was about the performance of the Soviet economy. The contributions of Samuelson are much broader than that misstep, and even that misstep doesn't constitute an embrace of the wider Soviet program (as many on here are suggesting).

    Ludwig von Mises made similar mistakes. This one in particular makes you wince - and it really goes even farther than what Samuelson said about the USSR:

    "It cannot be denied that Fascism and similar movements aiming at the establishment of dictatorships are full of the best intentions and that their intervention has, for the moment, saved European civilization. The merit that Fascism has thereby won for itself will live on eternally in history."

    Mises was no Nazi just as Samuelson was no Communist. Both said dumb things, as mortal humans are wont to do. For Mises, the scariest thing around was Communism, and Fascism seemed like a decent enough second-best solution. Coming out of WWII, Fascism was the scariest thing around and Communism didn't terrify Samuelson as much. Both men are liberals - neither are communists or fascists. Both made mistakes. The Austrians seem to recognize that with Mises. Can't we just get over this. This hardly qualifies as a "Samuelsonian contribution", and yet you guys just can't give it up.
  • Methinks1776
    BTW, Danny, since my study of economics dates back to before you were out of diapers, my memory is fuzzy. So, I decided to look up that Mises quote.

    I would like to now commend you on your efforts to obfuscate the issue and equivocate Samuelson's undying support for a vicious system and Mises' lukewarm and temporary support for Fascism in order to cast Samuelson in a better light. Krugman would be proud of you, young pioneer!

    Here's the full Mises quote:

    "It cannot be denied that Fascism and similar movements aiming at the establishment of dictatorships are full of the best intentions and that their intervention has, for the moment, saved European civilization. The merit that Fascism has thereby won for itself will live on eternally in history. But though its policy has brought salvation for the moment, it is not of the kind which could promise continued success. Fascism was an emergency makeshift. To view it as something more would be a fatal error."

    Oh, what a difference a little context makes, eh?

    One day, Danny, you're going to have to come to grips with the cruel mistake that is a top down system. I hope you do before it is too late. That is, I hope you stop spinning fantasies in your head that top down systems aren't actually top down to reconcile your desire to impose mathematical economics models on the population with your recognition that top down systems are inferior.
  • danielkuehn
    Haha - I see you changed it. "100 years before you were born" only highlighted the hyperbole you regularly trade in, so it was better to change it to "before you were out of diapers", huh?
  • Methinks1776
    yep. It was a typo which was supposed to be "10 years before you were born", but then I remembered that it continued until you were in diapers. Although, you may still be in diapers. Who really knows?
  • danielkuehn
    If I knew you weren't going to read my whole post, and that you weren't going to take it seriously I would have posted the whole Mises paragraph. The context you provide makes the exact same point that I do in my post, so I'm not sure what your problem is exactly.
  • Methinks1776
    Keep telling yourself that. One day, you may actually even believe it.
  • danielkuehn
    Wow - you must have skipped over the part where I wrote that Mises wasn't a fascist. Of course he didn't support fascism - but he sympathized with it's efforts and considered it the savior of Europe with an eternal place in history.

    I can understand why he would have thought that in 1927. I hope I wouldn't have thought that, but who knows - maybe I would have. That's my whole point - OF COURSE Mises wasn't a fascist. The fact that he considers it a temporarily acceptable solution is in itself very telling.

    This was my whole entire point, that apparently you've missed - good, liberal-minded people advocate or say very dumb things sometimes. It's part of being human. Mises was a good, liberal-minded person that was far too sympathetic to fascism for my tastes. But that doesn't define him. That's my point - just like Samuelson's indiscretions don't even come close to defining him.
  • Daniel,

    There's a slight difference between what Mises said and Samuelson said.

    Mises was absolutely right and Samuelson absolutely wrong.

    Guess which one you are.
  • danielkuehn
    Mises was right that fascism will be eternally remembered by history as the savior of European civilization????

    Whatever you say, DG.
  • And you won't go wrong with that.
  • And, by the way, unhand yon formerly Soviet maiden, before she stomps your brains out.
  • And, by the way, I see that you're still beating the drums for mathematical economics.

    Have you forgotten the drubbing I gave you on that?
  • danielkuehn
    I think you're confusing "the drubbing I gave you" with "logically inconsistent claims I threw at Daniel over and over again, which not even my libertarian buddies on here buy into (much like the way the mises.org saw right through me)".
  • Hey, that's not fair. You're reading my mind.
  • Methinks1776
    Yes, Danny. Shockingly, I see things through the prism of my experience just as you see things through the prism of your lack of experience.

    Samuelson was no Communist.

    Who cares? You say that like it's supposed to mean something.

    When did Mises make that statement? Wasn't it in the late 1920's? Did he continue to extol its virtues in 1939? In 1942? You're missing the point. It's not that Samuelson couldn't accurately predict in 1922 what Soviet rule would do. For decades he ignored mountains of empirical evidence that he was not only wrong about Soviet economics but he also dismissed the real human cost and continued to advocate those same totalitarian command and control methods for the U.S.

    In fact, it's clear he knew about the horrors and found the oppression worth it. Read the quote above. He continued to spin the fiction that the Soviet economic system created wealth until AFTER its collapse - when it had been plainly clear to everyone for decades that the system manufactured nothing but misery and poverty. That's not just a mere "oops" in his career.

    My issues with him go beyond this. Not only was he wrong in most of his predictions, he was laughably arrogant. His woeful lack of understanding of the stock market led him to believe that stock prices are random. Yet, he was confident that he could perfectly calculate your "social welfare function". Because, you know, we're just an undifferentiated mass of unwashed humanity to him. Human beings were mere numbers in his little equations and he felt no compunction in making you his lab rat. So, I don't give a damn if he was communist or not. Whatever label you want to give him, I find him reprehensible and I don't think that his mathematical economics is really economics at all.

    You can worship him as you do Krugman and ignore the consequences of their totalitarian beliefs all day. I would expect nothing else from you. It's still a free-ish country. For now.
  • danielkuehn
    RE: "Yes, Danny. Shockingly, I see things through the prism of my experience just as you see things through the prism of your lack of experience."

    This is exactly what I mean - calm down. I said it's good you do that. You just can't ONLY see things that way. And I'm not even saying that because I think you don't realize that - I'm sure you do. Sometimes it just seems like for you the Soviet Union speaks to every issue or problem we could possibly be discussing. There is always a reason for you to remind us (as if anyone needs to be instructed on it) how bad the USSR was.

    Samuelson didn't think stock prices were random - he thought fluctuations in properly informed prices were random, right? The idea was that given a set of fundamentals, there are no predictable patterns or trajectories in stock prices that would allow for prediction of future prices. That's positively Hayekian! I don't have strong feelings one way or another on that or EMH in general - my strongest feeling on those theories is simply that they're naive - but I don't think either Samuelson or Fama ever said stock prices THEMSELVES were random.

    I don't think Samuelson ever said he could perfectly calculate someone's welfare either. Where are you thinking that he did?

    Look - all I was saying was that Samuelson's contribution goes WAY beyond anything he ever said about the USSR (and even that is overblown by people on here, I think). You're addressing a few of those other things here - that's good.

    Nobody is worshiping anybody, Methinks. Nobody has totalitarian beliefs here (certainly there are those with totalitarian beliefs out there, but nobody that ever comments here). I'm not sure why you always feel compelled to resort to that sort of argument. It's condescending.
  • Methinks1776
    Danny, in ten minutes, I'm going to run out of time for your hair splitting, so I'll leave you with this to split and read your response later:

    I will continue to talk about the Soviet Union with or without your approval, child. If you don't like the comparisons, don't read them.

    There is always a reason for you to remind us (as if anyone needs to be instructed on it) how bad the USSR was.

    Yes, there is. It is to remind those of us who didn't aren't experts in Soviet life by war of their wives working with Soviet cartoons. Clearly Samuelson needed to be instructed on it (not that instructing him ever budged him). If you feel that you are already an expert, move along. You and every single intellectual has been irritated by our (soviet refuges) stories from the time we began telling them and busting your myths. Now, you've handily relabeled your old ideas and we annoy you by pointing out that they're the same ideas in new packaging.

    Of course Samuelson can't calculate your idiotically named "social welfare function". He doesn't give a crap. He'll subject you to his calculation anyway. That's the point.

    Look - all I was saying was that Samuelson's contribution goes WAY beyond anything he ever said about the USSR (and even that is overblown by people on here, I think). You're addressing a few of those other things here - that's good.

    Well, you know how valuable your approval is to me, Danny. And you know how much I care if you think that it's overblown to call out the author of the most popular econ text of all time for writing about the strength of the Soviet economy in every text for several decades and justifying oppression of hundreds of millions of people. And I'm sure you don't think you have any totalitarian beliefs. I'm CERTAIN you think you don't, Danny.

    So here's my question to you, your answer to which I hope to read tomorrow. You keep telling us that Samuelson has contributed WAAAAY more to economics than his undying love and support for the Soviet state. Aside from copious amounts of willful ignorance, arrogance, pettiness, meanness, and mathematical models of subjugation what are those massive contributions?
  • danielkuehn
    And I should say - he obviously wasn't the only one to think in terms of optimization and response to incentives. But he was one of the best at providing an extremely productive framework for thinking about optimization and response to incentives.
  • danielkuehn
    I and every single intellectual has been irritated by our (soviet refuges) stories from the time we began telling them and busting your myths?

    What the hell are you talking about, Methinks? Oh poor embattled Methinks. Don't call me "child", and forget I ever raised the point. It's unforunate this is all you see when you think of Samuelson. It's unfortunate that this is all you see when anyone makes any point. But so be it - it seems you're tied to it.

    RE: "Well, you know how valuable your approval is to me, Danny. "

    It wasn't my approval - it was my acknowledgement. And I could care less whether you value it or not. That's not why I acknowledge things.


    RE: "Aside from copious amounts of willful ignorance, arrogance, pettiness, meanness, and mathematical models of subjugation what are those massive contributions?"

    I would point to the mathematical models that enlightened several important questions, and the fact that he unified a lot of economic questions by bringing them all under the same general rubric of efficient optimization and response to incentives. Obviously that wasn't the end of the story - people go on and improve from there. But it was a great contribution.
  • Methinks1776
    I would point to the mathematical models that enlightened several important questions, and the fact that he unified a lot of economic questions by bringing them all under the same general rubric of efficient optimization and response to incentives. Obviously that wasn't the end of the story - people go on and improve from there. But it was a great contribution.

    Wow. Samuelson's great achievements in his field which are meant to dwarf his lifelong unwavering support for totalitarianism deserve a tiny 20% of the space in your post dedicated to them and are so vague that one thinks that perhaps you couldn't think of any accomplishments or you really don't know much about Samuelson's work.

    You reach a new level of pathetic and disappoint even my low expectations.
  • danielkuehn
    Fine - explain away Samuelson as an apologist for totalitarianism, just like you explain away anyone else that makes you slightly uncomfortable. It's your loss.
  • danielkuehn
    Oh it's a joke! You act like everything is a big monolithic battle between liberty and those who could care less about liberty. It's not. Friedman leaned heavily on money supply to explain almost every fluctuation for quite a while. And Friedman also came across as a libertarian proselytizer in a lot of cases. Nobody - nobody denies how important Milton Friedman was, or the vaue of his ideas. Nobody denies Friedman's dedication to human freedom, even if he may have understood that differently from how others understood it. And yes, people will joke from time to time. People do that. I'm sure Friedman got a laugh or could have gotten a laugh from both of those incidents (particularly Solow's - that joke was SELF-DEPRICATING after all).
  • curtd59
    Friedman vs Samuelson?
    This is to argue differences in preferences not differences in interpretation of an ultimate truth. I am no fan of friedman, whose recommedations, result in the privatization of wins and socialization of losses. But Samuelson would be perfectly happy driving us into communism if he could get away with it. For the very reasons Hayek told us public intellectuals do such things: vanity of experimentation.

    Choosing between Friedman and Samuelson is simply picking which devil you want to dance with. It's not that either failed to have insights. Its that both had valuable insights but either unconscious or deplorable ambitions.

    Personally, if we descend into a more socialist system, as Krugman daily advocates, it seems like I should revoke my right of violence, and simply become a black marketeer. At least it's the honest service of my fellow man's wants.
  • russroberts
    I'm talking about Milton Friedman. He was not a fan of socializing losses and often pointed out that businesses typically don't like capitalism, at least for themselves. Too much competition. They prefer protection.
  • David
    Regarding Solow's jibe that:

    “Another difference between Milton and myself is that everything reminds Milton of the money supply; well, everything reminds me of sex, but I try to keep it out of my papers.”

    It seems a bit of a strange comment given that everything seems to remind Friedman's critics of the dreaded "market failure."
  • While I certainly applaud Russ Roberts for calling Samuelson and Solow on their bad behaviour, my problem is not so much with that kind of behaviour as with a much worse kind, using the allegedly bad behaviour of your critics as a pretext for banishing them.

    My problem is not with the real men slugging it out, but with those hypocrites hiding behind the pretense of civility and ethics, especially that well-known policeman of the Austrian School, holding everyone but himself and his allies to the highest standard, and that famous arbiter of Harvard Ethics, which, apparently, doesn't allow for dissent.

    As Give 'Em Hell Harry Truman famously said, "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen."

    So, let the insults roll, and the real men defend themselves.
  • "Real men?"
    Are you sure you're at the right forum? I'm sure there are plenty of "mens magazines" out there where you'd fit in perfectly.

    Ad hominem abusive arguments not only discredit the character of the one committing the fallacy, but it pretty much destroys their own position as well. If their own position was valid they would of course have no need for avoiding the actual debate to begin with.
  • MnM
    While I don't have much love for Samuelson, it seems rather tasteless to insult the recently dead.
  • Methinks1776
    By "insult", I'm assuming you mean accurately recalling his life's work. Well, then what's the socially acceptable amount of time to wait after death to mention that the recently deceased spent his live advocating for tyranny?
  • muirgeo
    "...advocating for tyranny?" Hehehe...


    It sounds to me that Sameulson can defend himself very well against his persecutors even when dead. I'm sure he's loving this post and the cries of bully.
  • MnM
    Socially acceptable? I have no idea. I don't claim to speak for anyone else.

    I'm simply saying his family should be given time to grieve.

    You can point out the deficiencies of his life's work without calling him "inhuman".
  • Methinks1776
    Not if I want to be honest and accurate.

    Would it make your feel better if I used one of Samuelson's own adjectives? How about "jackass"?
  • MnM
    How I feel is perfectly irrelevant. I'm thinking about the man's family.

    I fail to see how an ad hominem makes your statements any more accurate.
  • Methinks1776
    Well, then you shall continue to fail to see. That sounds like a personal problem.

    Samuelson didn't give a damn about what his favoured ideology was doing to my family. Why should I care about his? Perhaps you would feel differently if you experienced it yourself. Perhaps not. But, I feel free - for now - to express my opinions in any way I wish. If you experienced Soviet life yourself, I'm almost certain that "inhuman" would be your adjective for anyone who knowingly supported it. If it isn't, too bad. It remains mine - regardless of how long the supporter is dead.
  • muirgeo
    "Samuelson didn't give a damn about what his favoured ideology was doing to my family"

    That's funny because his ideology was in play making this country the powerhouse it was when your family arrived here to take advantage of what others had built, fought and died for.
  • MnM
    Perhaps you should care because you're a better person than he is. Perhaps not.

    Methinks, it's a rare day that I disagree with you. I don't begrudge you your opinion, but that doesn't mean that I find it any less tasteless.

    Samuelson, despite all of his short comings, was a not a tyrant. While I would agree that the philosophy that he champions, either directly or indirectly, is at best inhuman, projecting that belief onto the man himself is flawed reasoning and does he and his family a serious injustice. Being a fool does not make a man inhuman.
  • Methinks1776
    From Samuelson's Economics, 10th edition published in 1976: "it is a vulgar mistake to think that most people in Eastern Europe are miserable,". In the 11th edition he took out the world "vulgar". There can be no more vulgar or callous statement, IMO. By that time there was more than enough evidence of exactly the opposite.

    By the 1985 edition, he deleted the passage and replaced it with a rhetorical question asking whether or not Soviet repression was "worth the economic gains". This, he said, "is one of the most profound dilemmas of human society".

    By the mid 1980's, the Soviet system was clearly in distress. Samuelson updated his text by adding "But it would be misleading to dwell on the shortcomings. Every economy has its contradictions. ... What counts is results, and there can be no doubt that the Soviet planning system has been a powerful engine for economic growth." Well, it was a powerful engine for the growth of something. Unfortunately, it was the vulgar misery that would come to haunt these cheerleaders. Well, "haunt" is too strong a word. Only a handful were ever actually disturbed by what they found when the Soviet system collapsed and fewer still suffered career set-backs even though their entire scholarly career had been built on appallingly poor scholarship. In academia, if you tow the right line, there are no repercussions when your life's work is found to be a steaming pile of badly researched BS.

    In 1989, Samuelson updated his text to read "The Soviet economy is proof that ... a socialist command economy can function and even thrive." as said system was crumbling around the world. Such a true believer.

    Samuelson believed economics to be as precise as mathematics and physical science. To Samuelson, humans were merely physical objects on which little gods like him were free (no, destined) to impose his mathematical formulas of social perfection and narrowly defined economic growth. How is this materially different from Mengele? Samuelson was a brilliant mathematician. Otherwise he was scum.
  • vidyohs
    My observation as well, Methinks. If you're a left looney you never have to feel, or show, regret, sorrow, embarrassment, remorse, or apologize for the mistakes and damage you've done. Soul mate left loonies will never call you out and others' condemnations are dead on arrival.

    The socialist religion is a religion of grotesquely inflated ego and hate, and it has proven this about itself over and over.

    The recent hate attack on John Mackey of Whole Foods is a fine example. The man presented some well reasoned ideas on healthcare and because he didn't toe the leftist line the devout went after him immediately with their knives.

    Now we have this:

    • Also gaining ground in the Search box are lookups on the Senator's wife, Hadassah Lieberman. The New York Daily News reports that "liberal activists want to see Hadassah Lieberman booted from her position as "Global Ambassador" for the Susan G. Komen for the Cure Foundation." Whether her husband's position on health care reform should in any way affect her own professional role as a spokesperson for cancer research is in and of itself a controversial question.

    What kind of religion produces such cockamannie egotistical haters that dictates immediate destruction of those who disagree.

    The sick church of socialism.
  • Bill Stepp
    Methinks1776,

    What evidence is there that he was a brilliant mathematician, judging by the standards of professional mathematicians?
    I'd say he was more of a second rate mathematician, and a third rate wanna-be physicist or engineer.
  • Methinks1776
    Bill, I may be talking out of my ear. Mathematics is not my field. Perhaps he was considered a brilliant mathematician by the standards of professional economics. Or by economists who thought it was so cool that human behaviour can be completely captured by a neat mathematical model because those economists never actually spent any time with other humans.
  • Methinks1776
    MnM, from time to time you're going to find other people's opinion and/or the expression of that opinion unpalatable - even if you most often agree with them. I find it unpalatable that people should seek to squash others' opinions because they don't like them. I find it more unpalatable that when a person dies, we suddenly have to spin a glowing fiction about him.

    I disagree that he was not a tyrant. He was an intellectual enabler of a tyrannical system. To claim that his hands are somehow clean is pure rubbish. How can one champion a vicious and inhuman philosophy and remain removed from it and untainted by it? I don't buy the argument that you are somehow excused because you only advocated slavery but didn't own slaves yourself. How does that work exactly? Will you be similarly reverent of David Duke when he dies? I think it is your reasoning that is flawed.

    What I find amusing is that you think it's less insulting to call Samuelson a fool. Samuelson was several things but the thing he wasn't was a fool.
  • MnM
    I'm not trying to squash your opinion. Hell, one of the reasons I read the comments section is to see your opinion. I'm simply expressing a belief that this particular one is in poor taste.

    I'm not asking that you eulogize the man. In fact, I'm not asking you to do anything. In the same way that you expressed your opinion, I'm expressing mine.

    I'm not sure what you mean by "intellectual enabler of a tyrannical system". I wasn't aware that tyrants needed any more enabling than strength of arms.

    I'm also not sure why you equivocate "fool" and "inhuman". The difference seems severe to me...
  • Methinks1776
    What I mean by enabling is brainwashing generations of students with his glowing support of a vicious ideology. I can't tell you how inhuman, miserable and soul-sucking it was. I understood early on that no matter how much people sympathized with Soviet inmates, it was impossible for them to empathize. It's just too horrible. People's minds protect them from "going there".

    Anyone who advocates such a system is a beast. Anyone who dismisses with the flick of his hand rivers of blood along with the fear and misery of hundreds of millions of people in pursuit of his desired end is an indescribable monster. Of course tyrants need propagandists. Force is more expensive than propaganda and often less effective. Samuelson's 10th edition is the best selling Econ text of all time. He was the perfect propagandist. Based on his own assertions, I don't for one second believe that he would have turned down working in a soviet-style system here just because it required oppression.

    I'm also not sure why you equivocate "fool" and "inhuman". The difference seems severe to me...

    You took offense at what I call the unvarnished truth and you call an insult. Then, you insulted Samuelson yourself by calling him a fool. So, are you offended by all insults or just mine? If it's the former, then you might be a bit hypocritical. If the it's the latter, then I didn't get the list of approved insults. Even if I did, I would ignore it. You will have to just go on being offended by me, MnM. The man deserves scorn and nothing but scorn - in life, in death, for eternity.
  • MnM
    Oh, now I understand what you mean.

    I may have communicated poorly. The meaning I intended to convey is "acting (or acted) foolishly", you know, like, forgetting to proof-read ;o).

    I draw a distinction between a person's actions and their character. Meaning, I don't know that Samuelson is evil, inhuman, beastial (which would be comments on his character), but I know that advocating tyranny is foolish. I hope that makes sense, I'm coming down to the wire here on how much time I've got left. Sorry if I didn't elucidate well enough.

    It strikes me as an incredible non sequitur to read "evil" or "inhuman" from his avocation of strong government and his dismissal of reality ( or at least I believe he dismissed it, but what do I know?).
  • Methinks1776
    Now, you're talking like an apologist. Samuelson was meticulous. He didn't merely foolishly overlook a few things about the Soviet experience. I know you're out of time, but just think about this when you have a spare moment: what kind of character must a man posses to not only be indifferent to the suffering of others but to also advocate it if it provides a means to his desired end? I think a logical conclusion can be drawn. Does it matter if he's evil? No. All that matters is what he did and what he did was his best to spread and sugar coat oppression. That's what "strong government" is a euphemism for.
  • When I go, you won't have to give my family time to grieve.

    They'll be celebrating, my life, of course.
  • MnM
    Noted.

    And?
  • MnM,

    First you tell me what MnM stands for (jackass, perhaps), and then I'll explain my jokes.
  • MnM
    MnM is a nickname I was given in high school.

    I was curious if there some reason you responded to me. Sorry for the brevity. My time is a little limited in Dec.
  • Methinks1776
    Do you look like the rapper or the candy?
  • LowcountryJoe
    Candy wrapper? It could be a two-fer.
  • MnM
    XD
  • MnM
    Oh, "look like". Sorry, long day. I used to be as skinny as the rapper, but more and more, I look like the candy (perhaps because I eat too many of them).
  • Methinks1776
    Stress will do that to ya'!
  • MnM
    It refers to the rapper...precisely because I don't like him; long story.
  • Methinks1776
    Oh. That makes sense.
  • Tut, tut, now.
  • Greg Ransom
    Bruce Bartlett on Samuelson the bully:

    "WHEN Arthur Laffer left Stanford University in 1967, he was on a swiftly rising professional trajectory. He finished his dissertation and received his Ph.D. in 1972, but, between 1969 and 1972, he published eight papers in top economic journals, including the distinguished American Economic Review and Journal of Political Economy. He spent a year plus at the Brookings Institution and was one of the youngest people ever tenured at the University of Chicago. Only the rarest of talents achieve such instant success. Laffer's top-tier publication output in his first years out of graduate school was about double that of the highly regarded Christina Romer, the current chairman of President Obama's Council of Economic Advisers.

    But while he was taking the academic profession by storm, Laffer made an unusual choice for an economist so young and promising. He decided to work for a Republican, accepting President Nixon's offer to become chief economist for the Office of Management and Budget. There, his charisma, sharp intellect, and willingness to debate lifted him to almost instant political fame. To put that fame in perspective, and to provide a proper measure of the man, I challenge even the most politically obsessed reader to name another person who has ever held that post.

    What happened next forms the riveting introduction to Econoclasts, historian Brian Domitrovic's landmark new history of the supply-side revolution. While at the OMB, Laffer developed a novel model for forecasting GDP. His model suggested a somewhat more optimistic future than was the current consensus. The Left, recognizing its opportunity, pounced. Paul Samuelson of MIT, the dean of the American economics establishment, visited the legendary economics department of the University of Chicago and delivered a lecture with a title that astonishes to this day: "Why They Are Laughing at Laffer." Domitrovic quotes Reagan adviser Martin Anderson on what happened at that lecture. Samuelson was, Anderson said, "small and he was mean. But what he did to Laffer that day in Chicago, even by academic standards of morality, was an extraordinary example of intellectual bullying."

    Yet Laffer's forecast ended up being, in Domitrovic's words, "borne out perfectly." Indeed, a look at the methods Laffer employed suggests that he was a pioneer in the analysis of time-series data. The model that Samuelson considered a laughing matter was an early and perhaps the first example of the type of advanced econometric model known as a "vector autoregression." These are now commonly relied upon. But the lecture was an important turning point in history: That such a senior member of a profession could attack so viciously a cub right out of graduate school, and could do so without incurring the displeasure of other academics who purport to defend a climate of open and civil debate, established once and for all that the rules for conservatives were henceforth going to be different."
  • Bruce Bartlett
    These are not my words. I believe they are David Henderson's.
  • The words are from a review by Kevin A. Hassett, which Bruce posted at his blog.

    I mistakenly thought this was Bruce speaking, as the post didn't have the usual quotations or introduction.

    The blog post is here:

    http://www.capitalgainsandgames.com/blog/bruce-...

    My apologies, Bruce.
  • Greg Ransom
    Samuelson also trashed a very young Art Laffer in an area where Laffer was a pioneer and Samuelson knew little -- and Samuelson seemed to be motivated on little more than partisan grounds.
  • Greg Ransom
    Arnold Kling in 2006:

    "In 1968, Friedman’s views were far from the mainstream. When Paul Samuelson wrote an article for the Canadian Journal of Economics on “What Classical and Neoclassical Economic Theory Really Was,” he sneered that for modern economists trying to understand monetarism was like being a farmer who had lost his jackass and having to ask, “If I were a jackass, where would I go?” In short, Samuelson considered Friedman a jackass."
  • gregransom
    In one of his papers Samuelson finds a underhanded way to call Friedman a jackass. And that's the word Samuelson used -- Friedman is a jackass.

    You should be able to google this quote easily.
  • muirgeo
    Yeah .. why would he need to be underhanded about it.
  • Thomas
    Probably only because saying it openly would make Samuelson look like an envious imbecile. Alas, the impression instead became one of small-minded snideness.
  • brotio
    Thomas,

    You have to understand: Friedman did not subscribe to the theory that only (Democrat) politicians can know how much liberty a man needs in order to be free, and therefore must be denounced for his heresy.

    Virtually all of Yasafi's heroes have defended the Soviet Union. Which is why I'm not surprised that he's here defending Samuelson.

    Oh, but Yasafi's not a socialist!
  • Pingry
    Milton Friedman presented a paper at a conference, after which Robert Solow commented: "Another difference between Milton and myself is that everything reminds Milton of the money supply; well, everything reminds me of sex, but I try to keep it out of my papers."

    --Pingry
  • Zvirblis
    Is this a sideways jab at Bryan's recent comments on Hayek?
  • Marcus
    I'm curious as to what in Russ's post leads you to think that?
  • Mommsen1625
    Interesting how petty a "giant" like Samuelson could be. It illustrates how much bullshit is involved in the world of academia, where the pie (be it economic, prestige, etc.) is so much smaller than the rest of the world.
  • MontaniSemperLiberi
    Samuelson should be remembered first and foremost as an apologist for totalitarian government and political repression.
  • muirgeo
    Samuelson's critiques of Friedman were spot on. The current crisis pretty much solves the monetary debate game,set and match for Samuelson. Plus it solves which type of brain also has a sense of humor. Did Friedman ever attempt a joke or lose the sourpuss facial expression.... ever?

    And I think that's why some refer to him as a totalitarian and an inhuman savage ideologue. Ehhh it's the price you pay to be a true intellectual. You're gonna step on some big toes.

    http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/12/14/sam...
  • Marcus
    "The current crisis pretty much solves the monetary debate..."

    You're right, it sure has. This economic downturn has proven beyond any shadow of a doubt that monetary policy is fundamentally essential to addressing a severe recession. It also demonstrated that monetary policy has many more tools at its disposal than simply setting interest rates.

    To suggest otherwise is ignorant.

    Of course, I'm not sure why you'd argue otherwise. The Fed is the mother of all central planners. I would think you'd be celebrating it.
  • danielkuehn
    You would really take a completely unalloyed view of the "monetary debate" and Friedman? I'm not sure that's wise - I think Friedman pointed out a lot of major problems. And we got a pretty good New Keynesianism out of those Friedman insights. Friedman wasn't right on everything, but then again, Samuelson wasn't either.

    You need to beware of the people who think they're always going to be right.
  • danielkuehn
    That's ridiculous
  • MontaniSemperLiberi
    Only in your statist mind. Samuelson continued to defend the Soviet system in his writings even after the East German revolution of 1953, the Hungarian revolution of 1956, the Prague Spring, and countless other examples of Soviet repression. He was an apologist for a system that has the blood of millions on its hands, and that is what he deserves to be remembered for.
  • Gil
    So what was wrong with the McCarthy era? Wasn't the rooting out of Communists indeed worth the price?
  • Methinks1776
    And why not? After all, Samuelson believed all human beings could and should be understood and manipulated through simple, scientific, mathematical formulas. Samuelson and his ilk are utterly inhuman. They believed they were superior to the common man and spent a lifetime providing intellectual cover for a savage ideology. He wasn't merely an apologist. He was an advocate.
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