Value-Producing Opportunities

by Don Boudreaux on December 5, 2009

in Complexity and Emergence, Cooperation, Seen and Unseen, Work

Here’s a letter that I sent yesterday to the New York Times:

RE Thursday’s White House “Jobs Summit” (“Obama Turns to Job Creation, but Warns of Limited Funds,” Dec. 4): the language is misleading.

Jobs themselves do not need to be created, for they are among the most abundant opportunities in our midst.  You can paint my house, serve as my personal masseuse, cook my dinners and clean my kitchen every evening.  You’re hired!  But you refuse, because I won’t pay you enough to do so.

It’s obviously not jobs that people ultimately want; it’s opportunities to earn income – and in a market economy people earn more income the more value they produce for others.  If the word “job” were replaced with “value-producing opportunity,” the added clumsiness of expression might be more than made up for by greater clarity of thought, namely, the recognition that what matters is each worker’s access to opportunities to produce value so that he or she receives in return as much spending power as possible.

Jobs are super-abundant; access to consumable goods and services is not.  It is widespread access to the latter that ultimately matters.  But this access is diminished by policies that create or protect “jobs” by taxing and regulating in ways that reduce the economy’s capacity to grow and produce the valuable goods and services that are the ultimate motivation for people to work.

Sincerely,
Donald J. Boudreaux

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  • danielkuehn
    Re: "You can paint my house, serve as my personal masseuse, cook my dinners and clean my kitchen every evening. You’re hired! But you refuse, because I won’t pay you enough to do so."

    Doesn't this get the currrent situation backwards? The drop has been in job openings, not in the number of people willing to take jobs. You seem to be misdiagnosing the problem.
  • johndewey
    Daniel, did you misunderstand Professor Boudreaux's post or did you just not read it all the way through? Don is completely correct that jobs are abundant. But there are two major reasons potential workers are not employed in those jobs:

    1. the values produced by those unfilled jobs are not very large - so Don and others cannot offer wages which would induce most unemployed persons to fill them;

    2. representatives of the electorate have passed minimum wage laws - laws which prevent many such jobs from being offerred at wages lower than the value produced from such jobs.

    I don't see how Don is misdiagnosing anything.





  • danielkuehn
    # 1 is an interesting twist on Don's point. He never said anything about employees who cannot offer wages in the first place - he was talking about workers refusing wages. That was my concern, because the whole problem with unemployment in this recession is that they've had no offers to refuse.

    Your # 1 is fine - I have no problem with that. It's not what Don said. There's a massive difference between a tight labor market where workers can be picky and refuse jobs, and a loose labor market where they aren't even offered a job.
  • johndewey
    It's no twist on what Don wrote, Daniel. Here's what Don wrote:

    "But you refuse, because I won’t pay you enough to do so."

    I thought it would be obvious to an economist-in-training what Don meant by that statement. But you seem to misunderstand, so I will try to explain. Don would not pay the a potential house painter enough to induce them to paint his house because the value to Don of a freshly painted house is not high enough.

    Let's give some dollars to Don's example so that you might be able to understand it:

    1. The value to Don of a freshly painted house is $500.
    2. A potential painter would spend $400 for paint and materials, leaving $100 he could receive for his labor.
    3. The painter knows that painting Don's house will require 100 hours of labor.
    4. The painter is unwilling to work for $1.00 an hour.
    5. The painter refuses Don's offer.

    Does the job "paint Don's house" exist? Yes, of course. Don said it does. Will the painter "be picky" and refuse the job? Of course he will, because he values his leisure time at more than $1.00 an hour.

    It's very simple, basic economics, daniel. Don's demand for labor is far to the right on the demand curve for painting labor. It is so far to the right that it falls below any point on the supply curve for painting labor.
  • danielkuehn
    Sorry johndewey - you're not going to drag me into an extended fight today. Suffice it to say, Don's statement presumed a job offer. Yours didn't (and I commended yours for that). There are a lot of jobs people would take right now if they were offered. Job seekers outnumber job openings six to one right now, and the spike up to a six to one, seeker-to-offer ratio wasn't precipitated by a bunch of new labor market regulation.

    And you don't need to explain the concept of "less than" to me.
  • johndewey
    "There are a lot of jobs people would take right now if they were offered."

    And there are a lot of jobs peoiple will not take right now - because those who would offer the work will not offer enough to induce the unemployed to work.

    Here's a real-world example, a job offer which really happened and which illustrates Don's point exactly:

    A young man walked up to me as I worked in my garage and offerred to trim the oak trees in my front yard for $50 a tree. I told him I could only pay $20 a tree. He left.

    "Job seekers outnumber job openings six to one right now"

    I do not what you mean by the term "job openings". A job exists right now in my front yard which will pay $60. It is not an advertised job because I'm not confident enough that anyone wants to trim my trees for $60. But it is a job.
  • danielkuehn
    Yes... you made a job offer and it was refused. That happens - nobody said that never happens. It's a big, complex, self-organizing labor market. Lots of things are going on. But if you look at figures on job seekers, job offers, and new hires that is not the dominant trend in the labor market right now. That's not what's driving things. That's not the most salient point.
  • Barbarossa
    There is nothing more embarrassing for observers than a fool who persists in being wrong, despite repeated evidence to the contrary. Definition of insanity, anyone?
  • danielkuehn
    Wow - that will probably be the most ironic thing I read all week.
  • Barbarossa
    Sure, daniel "I think paying off public debt is a bad thing" kuehn. Whatever you say.
  • johndewey
    "That's not what's driving things. That's not the most salient point."

    Our opinions about "what's driving things" are likely different. Here's my take:

    1. Government licensing of trades is preventing employment contracts between many potential employers and job seekers.

    2. Minimum wage laws have priced millions of workers out of potential jobs: their skills are not worth $7.15 an hour plus the government-imposed additional employment costs.

    3. Government social programs such as unemployment benefits, food stamps, subsidized housing, medicaid, and more have eliminated the urgency to find work.

    4. Uncertainty about job-killing legislation - specifically cap-and-trade and health care "reform" - is inhibiting employers from hiring new employees.

    5. Anticipation of higher tax levels - when cumulative deficits of Bush and Obama must be paid - sharply inhibits business expansion and kills potential jobs.

    As J.D. Foster correctly points out:

    "The economy will recover, but it will do so more quickly if Obama calls a time out to his frightening policies and government stops being a hindrance.",/em>
  • Barbarossa
    A point I was going to raise but you said it probably more succinctly.
  • robert_o
    Don is not addressing "the current situation" as a whole. He is addressing the particular (ludicrous) claim that jobs are things that need to be artificially "created".

    If the minimum wage is really $20/hour after you factor in all taxes, regulatory burden, political uncertainty, etc. then that's equivalent to all workers demanding at minimum $20 per hour of labor regardless of whether or not certain workers in particular are interested in getting paid as much.

    You can split hairs all you want on Don's "you refuse", that doesn't impress anyone here.
  • danielkuehn
    The claim he was addressing refered to the current situation. You don't think Don had the current situation in mind?
  • robert_o
    You must be thinking of some other blog post, where Don lays out a complete paper or the the contents of a new book.

    Or perhaps I misunderstood the meaning of the very first paragraph in his letter, where it says: "RE Thursday’s White House “Jobs Summit” [...] the language is misleading.", and perhaps even the rest of the post, where Don elaborates on the misleading aspect of the terminology chosen by the administration during said summit.

    Perhaps you are right and Don was proposing a long list of policy changes, regulatory changes and tax changes. I'm sure you will gladly clear up the confusion by stating between which lines in the blog post I should read this treatise, and clarifying the policy recommendations Don was making.
  • danielkuehn
    A new book? Policy changes? Regulatory changes? A treatise?

    I have no clue why you think I'm saying that. Don is responding to an article about job creation efforts in the current recession, and I'm saying that an unwillingness to accept work at a certain wage as well as minimum wage legislation has little to do with the lack of job creation right now. The problem is no one is offering jobs at any wage. Faith-based econoimcs isn't an option here. Just becuase labor market regulation restricts job opportunities doesn't mean it's relevant to the current slump in job creation. You can't just choose your favorite answer and use that every single time - you have to use the answer that works for the situation.
  • robert_o
    I have no clue why you think I'm saying that.

    Don: RE Thursday’s White House “Jobs Summit” [...] the language is misleading.
    Daniel: The drop has been in job openings, not in the number of people willing to take jobs.
    Me: Huh? What does that have to do with the source of jobs?
    Daniel: You don't think Don had the current situation in mind?
    Me: He didn't write that.


    Faith-based econoimcs[sic] isn't an option here

    For once, we agree.
  • Barbarossa
    I like how you "like" your own comments in an attempt to lend them credibility with everyone else. How pathetically transparent.
  • danielkuehn
    I'm sure Don or Russ have access to who "liked" what if you're really convinced and bothered about it - just ask them.
  • Barbarossa
    And keep ignoring the real issues that I've raised. When you can't fight it's best to get out of the ring.
  • danielkuehn
    The real issue you raised? The ONLY issue that you raised was your suspicion that I "liked" my own comment.
  • Barbarossa
    I'm not at all bothered (though it appears that you are now that someone called you on something of which you are guilty) though I am fully convinced that you liked your own comment. I kind of pity you.
  • danielkuehn
    I like how you see conspiracies everywhere.

    Nope - someone else must have liked it. Sorry. Have fun working with your politicians.
  • Barbarossa
    Oh, I'm sorry, exactly to what conspiracy did I refer? Oh, are you making things up again? Man, your therapist is lucky to have you.
  • JB_Shotworth
    I like Schiff's version better: who needs jobs when what you really want is stuff?
  • sandre
    Schiff's analogy in his Henry Hazlitt Lecture @ the ASC was excellent. If somebody invented a machine that delivers anything you want at the push of a button, the government will ban those machines, because nobody will need a job after that. Or something to that effect.
  • Barbarossa
    Peter Schiff gives me warm-fuzzies. I really hope I succeed in working on his campaign next year.
  • danielkuehn
    Good Lord. He's probably the only one that I want in there less than Dodd.
  • Barbarossa
    Why, because he accurately predicted the current economic situation, while none of your friends in government saw it coming? Because he didn't have political and financial ties to Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, like Dodd? Because maybe we should listen to the guys who got it right? Because you enjoy being enslaved and your future squandered?
  • danielkuehn
    It's precisely because I don't want my future squandered that I have concerns about Schiff. Schiff the only one that saw it coming? I suppose Nouriel Roubini, Paul Krugman (bracing myself for the avalanche on this one, but it has to be said), Edward Gramlich, etc. are all just chopped liver to you. Like most Austrians, Schiff thinks we've been heading downhill since 1913. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

    I gave it a thought, and actually I don't have a single friend that works for the government. Even the ones in DC - all the ones I can think of at the moment work in the private sector. A friend of a friend works for a Congressman, I suppose. It's ironic that you keep bringing this up - since you're the one who just openly admitted you're excited to work for a politician.

    Have fun with the politicians, Barbarossa. It's not my cup of tea.
  • Barbarossa
    Could you be more specific as to your concerns regarding Schiff? Or are you purposely being vague so that it is impossible to counter your argument? And Krugman doesn't even have the record of a broken clock, so Schiff's got one up on him, at the very least. And you don't think we've been downhill since 1913? Let's see, two of the stated missions of the Fed are to preserve the value of the currency and to reduce the number and severity of economic downturns...and it has failed miserably on both counts. And, wow, I'm convinced now finally that you're not a lackey for the state because you claim (probably falsely) that none of your friends work for government...oh, except that "friend of a friend." Man, you employ elementary-school level tactics at lending yourself credibility; do you really think anyone buys them? And Schiff is not a politician; just because he is running for office doesn't mean he's a corrupt incumbent politician like Dodd. Obviously, government exists in this country, and obviously one of the major ways to reform government is by electing people to office who pledge to do so, so no it's not "ironic" that I "keep bringing this up" and no you have not won. Please feel free to tell me all the good that Dodd has done and deny that he had any part in our current economic mess. Please indeed.
  • danielkuehn
    Re: "Could you be more specific as to your concerns regarding Schiff? "

    So I wanted to give you specifics, but Schiff's Senate website doesn't seem to have any positions. However - he's on the record of wanting to end the Fed. That reason alone is enough to vote against a candidate. He has talked about paying off the national debt, a position which doesn't illicit much confidence in his understanding of public finance (this isn't a radical concern with Schiff - read James Buchanan's response to Barro's work on Ricardian Equivalence. That George Mason economist wouldn't be too impressed with Schiff's grasp of public finance). And aside simply from the oddness of his push to pay off the debt, the fact that he's proposing it in a deep recession like this is even more reason to doubt his abilities.

    I could guess at lots of other things I would disagree with him on, but that's really what he talks about most, and he doesn't have anything else on his website. It's reason enough to oppose his candidacy, though. I don't really need to know much else. He could agree with me on everything else and it still probably wouldn't compensate for these positions.

  • Barbarossa
    I have to say, looking at only his website and not his podcasts, articles, or Youtube videos is some serious investigation that has left no stone unturned. And invoking "Ricardian Equivalence," while it may make some moron think that you sound intellectual, is, to us smart people, irrelevant. So paying off debt is a bad thing? An individual should never worry about his debt? So if he is proposing that we pay off debt during a recession, what, you propose that we spend more and take on more debt? You=the inverse of Christopher Langan *Einstein*Stephen Hawking
  • danielkuehn
    RE: "I have to say, looking at only his website and not his podcasts, articles, or Youtube videos is some serious investigation that has left no stone unturned."

    No, Barbarossa - I've seen and read considerably more about Schiff which was why I had such a problem with him in the first place. My disappointment in his lack of stated positions on his campaign website was that I'd prefer to comment on his election platform, since we're talking about his Senate run. I may have an opinion on his views on gold, for example, but that might not be as relevant to his Senate run. It's not as if I haven't read him and heard him speak before - I'm familiar with the other sources. I just thought it would be best to rely on his election platform for my response to you.

    RE: "And invoking "Ricardian Equivalence," while it may make some moron think that you sound intellectual, is, to us smart people, irrelevant."

    Ummm.... James Buchanan has written a LOT in his career. I simply mentioned his reply to Barro on Ricardian Equivalence so it would be easier for you to identify what I'm talking about. If I were to just say "Buchanan thought this", it wouldn't be nearly as helpful. I thought "us smart people" would appreciate better citation.

    Re: "So paying off debt is a bad thing? An individual should never worry about his debt?"

    Paying off the national debt would be a bad thing. An individual should definitely worry about paying off his debt. Anyone who thinks private debt and public debt work in the same way in my mind isn't qualified to be a Senator.

    RE: "So if he is proposing that we pay off debt during a recession, what, you propose that we spend more and take on more debt?"

    Bingo! And I'd seriously question the intelligence of anyone who thought we should pursue the exact opposite course.













  • Barbarossa
    I think the point is that paying off private debt and public debt have the same beneficial consequences and both are equally necessary. Sure, they "don't work in the same way" because public debt is 100% wasteful and has a much slimmer chance of being paid back whereas private debt tends to be productive and has a history of being paid back. So again, why shouldn't be pay off our debt? Avoiding the issue or focusing on related issues does not answer the question.
  • danielkuehn
    I'm about to have breakfast so i can't make it long - perhaps later today or tomorrow. To sum it up: he's an Austrian, he's a populist, and he's a classic silver tongued politician. Usually you don't get all three in the same package, but Schiff manages it.
  • brotio
    he's an Austrian, he's a populist...

    Let's see. What was it you wrote when I pointed out that I don't like The Church of AGW because they're anti-liberty, and they're thieves?
  • Barbarossa
    Your breakfast is like your bullshit: serial.
  • vidyohs
    I like that one. DuplicitousKuehn the cereal bullshitter.
  • danielkuehn
    That, I have to confess, was a good one.

    Biscuits and gravy actually. Ask Russ or Don about the "like". And stop being so suspicious of everyone.
  • Barbarossa
    Just because he advocates investing in precious metals doesn't make him silver-tongued. You're still being vague. What undeliverable fantastic promises has he made, huh? And what does that mean, "populist"? Usually that would refer to some Leftist nut-job like yourself. Are you just bending definitions now to suit your ends? You're just throwing out cliche gripes about politicians with exactly nil supporting evidence.
  • JB_Shotworth
    Link? I've had several misses already...
  • sandre
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgMclXX5msc

    This talk has been viewed more than a 150,000 times on youtube.
  • Marcus
    Well, we have some real world examples today which we can examine such as digital information.

    Let's take music as an example. After a song has been digitally recorded that recording can be reproduced countless times at price so cheap per copy that we can effectively say it's free. In fact, it is so cheap to distribute digitally recorded songs that people are perfectly willing to run their own peer-to-peer networks in order to do so.

    What we saw was that the peer-to-peer networks were effectively shutdown and it was the capitalists who did it! The argument, of course, is that while distributing the songs might be effectively free, producing a song consumes resources and is not free. If nobody paid for songs then nobody will produce songs.

    So, coming back to the 'machine that delivers anything you want at the push of a button'. How does the machine know how to produce what it produces? Did someone have to 'teach' it? How does it 'learn' about knew things to produce?

    I think maybe the example isn't as enlightening as it might seem to be on the surface.
  • sandre
    What we saw was that the peer-to-peer networks were effectively shutdown and it was the capitalists who did it!


    did the "capitalists" use government to shut it down? There is a strong argument to be made against IP from a libertarian perspective. I'm a little ambivalent on this topic - however, I lean towards reducing the stringency of the copyright laws.

    As for the details of the machine, it was just hypothetical.
  • Barbarossa
    I forget where I saw it, but some guy did a wonderful video demonstrating how Trent Reznor was able to give his music away for free and still make money. And secondly, there will always be at least SOME people willing to pay for songs, else from whom would people copy their music? It's like anything else: Some people will be willing to pay a "premium" (in this case, a price at all) to hear a song immediately upon release, and there are some people too who have integrity enough simply to pay for the music. Besides, bands make so much money from concerts and merchandise, who cares if they make no money on songs? That'll just free up funds from fans to be spent on additional tickets, t-shirts, etc.
  • JB_Shotworth
    "What we saw was that the peer-to-peer networks were effectively shutdown and it was the capitalists who did it! The argument, of course, is that while distributing the songs might be effectively free, producing a song consumes resources and is not free. If nobody paid for songs then nobody will produce songs."

    There's a lot of disagreement among libertarians about intellectual property rights. Your statement about "capitalists!" make me think you have an un-nuanced view of free-enterprise. I recommend Roberts' podcast with Boldrin concerning property rights:

    http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2009/05/boldri...

    This is Roberts' archive. It's magnificent:
    http://www.econtalk.org/archives.html

    I'd recommend Munger on price gouging next, but almost every one of these podcasts is great and Roberts has improved steadily:

    http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2007/01/munger...

    "So, coming back to the 'machine that delivers anything you want at the push of a button'. How does the machine know how to produce what it produces? Did someone have to 'teach' it? How does it 'learn' about knew things to produce?"

    You're just saying that producers need to be compensated. This podcast with Jimmy Wales (of Wikipedia) could answer how people are compensated, even when there's no money involved:

    http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2009/03/wales_...

    But Schiff's point (via sandre) stands. Our government (and the Krugmans) don't know what work is for. Which is why they think Keynesian solutions make sense. (High unemployment? Dig ditches!) If you're not producing anything of value or making somebody happy, then you're just doing make-work. If you're just doing make-work, then you're not increasing the supply of available goods and services for others and there's no reason to pay you. If, however, someone produces a machine that gives you everything you want, then there's no pressing reason to work.
  • Barbarossa
    Not only would you not be increasing the supply of available goods and services, but you would be a drain on the existing supply of available goods and services as you employed them in your make-work position.
  • Marcus
    "There's a lot of disagreement among libertarians about intellectual property rights. Your statement about "capitalists!" make me think you have an un-nuanced view of free-enterprise."

    That is rather presumptuous of you and only servers to demonstrate that you haven't read very many of my posts. When I post on a forum like Cafe Hayek, which I have been doing for several years now, I just assume people are well aware of my strong libertarian positions on the subject and I also assume that people will extend me the courtesy of interpreting my posts in that context. At least, I would hope that every time I post on Cafe Hayek I don't have to provide a detailed explanation of my all my particular positions on libertarianism. FWIW, I listen to EconTalk every week.

    Perhaps I could have chosen a better word than 'capitalist' in that post but it is difficult to be both brief (because I'm not writing war and peace) and yet cover all the manners in which somebody can mistake a point.

    Back to the context of this particular discussion, I was simply trying to point out that in the real world example of digital music distribution it wasn't the 'job-protectionists' (ie. the people you typically think of who try to stop businesses from 'out-sourcing' jobs) who shut down the peer-to-peer networks.
  • JB_Shotworth
    "Perhaps I could have chosen a better word than 'capitalist' in that post"

    I'm too jumpy; I live in an American city with a Lenin statue in a prominent square and some clown who drives around in a red Prius with a hammer-and-sickle. Every time someone says 'capitalist' in a fashion that isn't obviously pro- I start arguing. It's a moral failing.
  • Marcus
    That's cool. I probably over-reacted too.
  • vidyohs
    We can start the process of kicking the bully's ass by understanding what this man http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VP2p91dvm6M is saying and following through with action.

    The revolution did not begin in 1775, it began back in the early 1700s as growing discontent, and even hatred of Britain, was met with the same sort of action and process the man talks about.

    JohnK,
    No one man is going to ignite the needed, peaceful hopefully, revolution necessary to put government back under our thumbs and keep it there.

    I can guarantee you that the haters of freedom and lovers of powerful central government are meeting and planning on how to keep control now that they have it.

    Should we do no less?
  • muirgeo
    Yeah... that guy hates government just like you vidyohs... well except for his government pension too.
  • Barbarossa
    If Hitler hadn't murdered millions of Jews, would you have exalted him as an exemplary statesman? I have a feeling I know the answer and that it remains the same even if the condition is removed.
  • Barbarossa
    Do you mean social security? Nothing like using a pyramid scheme to prove your point.
  • vidyohs
    You're inflicted with the same stupidity Gil is, only more so.
  • Barbarossa
    It's not the same stupidity; muirgeo is in a class all his own.
  • Barbarossa
    And he took the short-bus to get there.
  • sandre
    Ain't democracy wonderful? That's how it is supposed to work.
  • Gil
    Better yet vidyohs you and your friends should take a leaf out of these guy's book:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAQW5MpL7oU&feat...
  • vidyohs
    As usual you should never operate keyboard while stoned.

    What "guy"?

    In your Australian lexicon two carloads of thugs is a "guy"?

    If they ever let you out of that institution, send me an e-mail and I'll meet you for a pint, I'll even buy. I'd like to see if there is anyone home behind your eyes.
  • Gil
    And you piss on about a 'revolution'? You want to hold tea parties and expect the leaders of America to automatically stand down with no violence or you having to break a sweat? Why would you bother defending the 2nd Amendment? Maybe as you're a antique gun collector who buys them and never use them lest their value goes down?
  • vidyohs
    Just make sure you send me that e-mail. I have put back the price of two pints just to make sure I can afford the exploratory moment looking into your eyes for some sort of intelligence and organized mind.
  • muirgeo
    " But this access is diminished by policies that create or protect “jobs” by taxing and regulating in ways that reduce the economy’s capacity to grow and produce the valuable goods and services that are the ultimate motivation for people to work."

    So we should get rid of work place safety standards, environmental standards, unions, minimum wage, the 40 hour work week, pensions, health insurance, the clean air and water act, allow child labor and not worry about plants that throw waste into our drinking water?

    Wow it seems China must be a great place to live, work and buy cheap things!!!
  • Barbarossa
    Do you really think that in an affluent country child labor laws are even necessary? And in a poor country, would you rather have that child and his family starve to death because the child could not earn additional income for his family? And in really impoverished countries, where an education system is either non-existent or seriously lacking and is certainly not or poorly attended by the vast majority of children, wouldn't it be better for them not to remain idle but to earn an income and have some education about the real world on the job? Let me truncate and repeat my original question: Do you really think?
  • Barbarossa
    Forty-hour work weeks? Come on. This is another example of "after the fact" legislation. Tell me, do you think forty-hour work weeks 4000 years ago would have been effective, beneficial, or even desired by the average person? Have you considered the possibility that the accumulation of capital and modern technology have allowed people to work less in order to survive? That without such laws employers might compete for hires in part on how they do not require excessive work weeks? And what about the fact that plenty of people do choose to work more than 40 hours, often without compulsory overtime pay, because they work two jobs? And many of those people who choose to work more than forty are often high-paid professionals like doctors or lawyers or self-employed entrepreneurs? If John Dewey reads this post, please forgive me for asking so many questions, but I'm trying to prove a point to our dense friend muirgeo.
  • robert_o
    muirgeo, a skilled doctor if I am to understand him, works no more than 40 hours per week.

    If it weren't for the government giving him a reprieve, his clients (the poor and the destitute that his helps so much) would force him to work 160 hour weeks, and would force his own children to cure them of diseases too.

    If the government didn't require him to wash his hands, he wouldn't do it either. Imagine the repercussions on his worker safety and the safety of his staff and clients! Why, he might even go bankrupt from the unending stream of lawsuits and the high costs of turnover! Good thing Uncle Sam took his own advice and forced him to do something he would not have done otherwise.

    Planet saved!
  • Barbarossa
    Not to mention the law of diminishing returns when it comes to hours worked per week. Eventually, if you overwork your employee too much, he becomes much less productive in general per every hour worked and not simply per overtime hour worked and might be inclined to quit his job (that is, until Godvernment outlaws quitting a job because it's unpatriotic in order to beef up its already thoroughly massaged employment statistics), so that it would behoove an employer simply to hire an additional employee to help do the work.
  • Barbarossa
    So you're telling me that without workplace safety standards instituted by government, employers would never voluntarily implement them? You don't think that they might be aware that a safe worker is a productive worker and that one means of attracting workers is by demonstrating a safe work environment? You've never had or heard of jobs where they boast to prospective hires about their on-site gym, their fully-stocked break room, their game room, their casual dress code, their free lunches on Fridays? As far as I'm aware, employers aren't mandated by government to offer those things to employees, which, logically, means that they do so voluntarily. Seems weird to me that they would voluntarily offer these things but not a safe work environment, not to mention that any employer who did not regard the safety of its workers could potentially open itself up to lawsuits by an injured employee, something which is perfectly consistent with free-market capitalism and the proper role of government, that is, protecting private property (in this case the worker's own body).
  • Barbarossa
    Do you and Daniel Kuehn work in the same governmental department?
  • Marcus
    a) Unions

    Yes, this is a no-brainer, we should get rid of them.

    b) Safety standards, environmental standards, clean air and water act

    Market externalities are real. To the extent that these address market externalities we should keep them. But, we should always be ready to re-evaluate them.

    GMU would probably argue that markets are better at resolving market failures than government is. I believe that is probably true in many cases but I don't see how the market, by itself, can resolve something like air pollution.

    c) Pensions, health insurance

    Now this one really perplexes me. From the various things that I read, the left really despises big corporations. And yet here, concerning saving for retirement and health care, they want to put corporations in control of our lives. I don't understand that.

    Why on Earth would I want my employer deciding for me what investments I am allowed to invest in for retirement or what health care options I'm allowed to have?

    Can you explain that to me? Thanks.
  • Yes, this is a no-brainer, we should get rid of them.

    Not the unions themselves, but any government prescriptions that give unions advantage in the market.

    Even with those prescriptions, unions have definitely lost ground.
  • Randy
    The government could do all of those things, and everything else we want it to do, for 10%, but they take 40%, and soon they will take 50%. There's a problem, and all you want to do is shoot the messengers.
  • vidyohs
    This kind of comment from you, my little mental Chihuahua, this demonstrated lack of intellectual capability is why you are universally held in contempt here.

    Let's see:

    "work place safety standards, environmental standards, unions, minimum wage, the 40 hour work week, pensions, health insurance, the clean air and water act, allow child labor and not worry about plants that throw waste into our drinking water?"

    it is all powerful government officials who respond positively to the bribes of lobbying that permit such things to go on, and they do so by violating their own guidelines, rules, regulations, and laws.

    So, your answer is more government in the present mold, or at least the government we have, as the solution. It is impossible for freaks of nature such as yourself to understand that government such as ours has evolved into is in an incestuous relationship with both voters and business. One panders the other, who panders to the other, who panders to the other, and we all get screwed in the end.
  • muirgeo
    Yeah but if you can squeeze a government pension and some tax payer funded healthcare out of the system..... If I weren't held in contempt by people like you I'd worry about me.
  • vidyohs
    LOL, if you and I were just the only ones involved in the ideological split and equal contempt then that would be a good answer, but t'ain't so.

    No one cooks up the contempt you do with your socialist stupidity and total lack of intellectual honesty, but then that is just repeating myself.

    LOL again, as if the folks here were too dense to know that you undoubtedly have your CPA making sure that you never pay a dime of tax and you're getting rich off the poor suckers that don't know the vacumm you have between your little pointy Chihuahua ears.
  • Barbarossa
    Hey, Beavis. He said "t'ain't." Huh huh.
  • sandre
    Well said muir, government should tax everyone for their carbon consumptions, how else you, me, and Al Gore would make our billions.

    Mmmmwwwwaaaaahhhhhh
  • David
    I was amazed to see someone "mowing" a park-like area in St. Petersburg with a scythe when I visited there a few years ago. It certainly is easy to create jobs.
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