Did they expect to be bailed out

by Russ Roberts on February 11, 2010

in Financial Markets

I don’t think bankers planned on being bailed out. But I think it affected their decision-making. Jeffrey Friedman doesn’t think so . (HT: Arnold Kling). He argues:

if one actually reads accounts of the decision making in the years leading up to the crisis, such as Gillian Tett’s Fool’s Gold and William D. Cohan’s House of Cards, no decision makers factored bailouts into their calculations. Why? Because they didn’t think they were doing anything particularly risky (an ignorance-based human error), so they didn’t even consider the chances of being bailed out.

Hmmm. Not the best evidence. Do you really expect Jimmy Cayne, the CEO of Bear Stearns to tell a reporter that he threw away his firm’s money because he thought he’d get it back from taxpayers? But here’s what he does tell William Cohan:

The only people [who] are going to suffer are my heirs, not me. Because when you have a billion six and you lose a billion, you’re not exactly like crippled, right?

And then there’s this moment from Andrew Haldane, the Executive Director of Financial Stability of the Bank of England:

A few years ago, ahead of the present crisis, the Bank of England and the FSA commenced a series of seminars with financial firms, exploring their stress-testing practices.  The first meeting of that group sticks in my mind.  We had asked firms to tell us the sorts of stress which they routinely used for their stress-tests.  A quick survey suggested these were very modest stresses.  We asked why.  Perhaps disaster myopia – disappointing, but perhaps unsurprising?  Or network externalities – we understood how difficult these were to capture?

No. There was a much simpler explanation according to one of those present. There was absolutely no incentive for individuals or teams to run severe stress tests and show these to management. First, because if there were such a severe shock, they would very likely lose their bonus and possibly their jobs. Second, because in that event the authorities would have to step-in anyway to save a bank and others suffering a similar plight.

All of the other assembled bankers began subjecting their shoes to intense scrutiny.  The unspoken words had been spoken.  The officials in the room were aghast.  Did banks not understand that the official sector would not underwrite banks mis-managing their risks?

Yet history now tells us that the unnamed banker was spot-on.  His was a brilliant articulation of the internal and external incentive problem within banks.  When the big one came, his bonus went and the government duly rode to the rescue.

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  • aje
    Russ - even if they were incentivised to run stress tests, what evidence is there that they'd have shed any light on the situation? More here: http://thefilter.blogs.com/thefilter/2010/02/a-...
  • SheetWise
    From your link --

    "In short, even if the banks had incentives to run stress tests, they wouldn't have known which stress tests to run."

    From your post --

    "what evidence is there that they'd have shed any light on the situation?"

    No evidence. Because they were not going to find something that they weren't looking for.

    And that's really a component of the answer to the OP. The people making decisions really didn't care. And why should they?

    Here's a proposition for you:

    I will offer you an investment opportunity where you can make .000976% on your money every five minutes, 24/7. This opportunity will result in a 28%+ daily return. The risk of this opportunity failing is less than one-out-of-a-thousand (.00085)

    If you think you could sell this opportunity, you can give your client (investor) a 2% daily return, and keep 26% for yourself. I think we all agree that a 2% daily return -- over 60% a month -- is a pretty good return. But you get to keep 26% a day -- over 780% a month!

    Here's the catch. As the broker, you are required to put half of your profits back into the investment. That is an absolute requirement -- you are only allowed to take 13% a day in profit (~390% a month).

    Do you still like the deal?

    OK. Here it is (don't tell anybody):

    Go to Las Vegas and play a ten step martingale strategy on craps, playing the don't side. That's all there is to it. Don't worry -- this is perfectly legal. The casino will even comp some of your expenses and send a limo to the airport to pick you up.

    Realize that when you do lose (and you will), that you've lost half of your "profits" -- but you've also kept half. Your investors on the other hand, will have lost everything.

    Hint: Instead of paying investors 60% a month -- make it 15% a year, and this strategy might get you to retirement before it fails -- and if not, who cares?
  • I think really is as simple as a matter of accountability in that bonus checks are still received, the individuals responsible still manage to exit the scene as wealthy men, and the losses are spread out among the shareholders and tax-payers.
  • SheetWise
    Of course they get to exit the scene as wealthy men. The last I heard, congress critters are still getting their pay and perks as well. What will it take before somebody picks up on the scent that there could be, may be, possibly, collusion?

    Collect all of the examples you can find where taxpayers are stuck with the bill, and compare them to all of the examples you can find of taxpayers sticking somebody with the bill. That leaves us with one question -- "What are the odds?"
  • bean_counter
    I think this should be settled via econtalk. But, would prefer a discussion of voice v. exit.
  • carlsoane
    Why focus on moral hazard when there is a much simpler explanation? When millions of investors lost their own money in the tech bubble and millions more in the housing bubble, they did so without any expectation of being bailed out. They got swept up in the mania, ignored fundamentals and disregarded risk. The bankers did the same thing.
  • txslr
    What banks are we talking about, investment banks or commericials? Of course the commericials had "too big to fail" as well as insured deposits. The investment banks only had the former. Yet they both ran into troubles, didn't they? For the commericial's how would you distinguish between the impact of "too big to fail" and deposit insurance? Seems to me like they'll have very similar impacts in terms of management incentives. A bunch of small commericials failed as well, which clearly had nothing to do with their being too big to fail.

    And while I'm at it, if the primary driver in the disaster was government policy which encouraged risk taking by banks (or undercapitalization, which is the same thing) why was the vast proportion of the troubled assets related to real estate finance? If banks have an incentive to act crazy, why would they all chose to act crazy with the same portfolio?
  • Methinks1776
    This is anecdotal evidence, but the decision makers at the bank were not thinking about bailouts and they did think they were adequately managing risk. We should remember that throughout this period, report after report came out about how much less risky risk is to explain tightening credit spreads.

    The Jimmy Caynes, Stan O'Neals and Dick Fulds had no incentive to knowingly destroy their companies even if a bailout was (were?) expected. As you have pointed out before, these are very wealthy men. At some point, money is no longer enough of a motivator to take gargantuan risks. Even if bailouts leave them very wealthy men still, their legacy is destroyed and after your net worth hits a certain level, legacy becomes more important.

    In fact, banks and brokers have self-destroyed in the past and were allowed to fail, so there was no reason to believe that they would necessarily be bailed out - especially less well politically connected banks. Yet, less well connected banks took giant risks.

    Stress tests are highly subjective, aren't they? Basically, the banker in England said that teams don't have incentives to factor in apocalyptic scenarios into their analysis. At the end of the day, the person to whom they present the stress tests must ask how reasonable the assumptions in the test are and can send the team back to do further testing incorporating a darker future than than the original tests anticipated.

    The didn't. Possibly because they thought the darker scenarios were impossible, which ties into the claim that they didn't think risk was all that risky.

    It's easy to blame them in hindsight for relatively easy stress tests, but would you be able to justify harsher tests four years ago? If so, based on what?

    All this really does is shed some light on how hard risk management really is. I think the difficulty of risk management remains under-appreciated.
  • SheetWise
    "It's easy to blame them in hindsight for relatively easy stress tests, but would you be able to justify harsher tests four years ago? If so, based on what?"

    Concentration of risk. It really doesn't matter how long you hold a risky investment if, in the end, you're always holding an investment that has the same type of risk. You can dodge a few bullets, but how long do you want to play that game?
  • Indeed, and as we have both seen, the full extent of the exposure is not known until the unwinding begins.
  • iamisha
    Here's the full url of Haldane's speech referenced above:

    http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publications/spe...

    I provide this since the link didn't work for me.
  • lburkefiles
    First I think we need to separate Investment Bankers and Commercial Bankers, back when their management was making choices. The difference today and a good deal less.

    Investment Bankers clearly did not understand the risks. Their models failed to predict the largest bundle of losses in their operational history. I think where they missed it was no one was looking at a holistic approach to the market conditions and they did not understand that the markets in which they were trading - had no underlying mechanism to enforce the non-exchange agreements. Each had their segment, none saw it all. To emphasis they did not understand the collection risk behind a major systemic default. There was no enforcement mechanism in place to insure settlement. So when the markets evaporated and no one was settling their investment contracts - winners or losers, the US stepped in a back the agreements to keep the financial system in tact. It really would have been as bad as they say it was going to be.

    Commercial Banks quite frankly didn't get it and didn't care. There were incentives to not rock the boat and to strive for ¼ after ¼ growth in earnings. A robust stress test would interrupt those earnings (and bonuses) - so anyone who raised the issue was - sidelined by telling them that many more people smarter than you (the doubter) disagree with you. I got the chance to attend one of those meetings. What got incentivized got done. The bankers were after bonuses - not the future of the company, most were not even shareholders.

    So based upon my experience the Investment Bankers did not see it coming and did not understand the collection risks of the non-exchanged traded contracts. The Commercial Bankers did not really care if they were going to get bailed out or not - they just wanted their bonuses.

    It is important to look at commercial banks and understand the argument you put forth about the expectations of a bailout. The questions appears to be framed as if the Bankers and manager were actually owners. It is a good argument for an owner, but these folks were labor.

    It would be very interesting to see the minutes of any board meetings of these companies. The board of directors are the folks supposedly looking out for the shareholders.....
  • SheetWise
    Typing on that iPhone again aren't you? Get the Google phone Burke -- Android -- open source is the future ...
  • And now did all those who lent to Greece expect being bailed out by Germany?
  • your understanding of the way all financial firms evaluate risk is simply wrong. Do you think management just lets the fox guard the hen house ? Every single firm as a seperate Risk department. And those risk departments run those kind of worse case scenarios. The real issue was the parameters they were given. The quality ratings of the mortgage backed securities were fraudulant, pure and simple. Fannie and Freddie artifically keep those ratings inflated and the ratings agencies went along with it. Had those ratings been correctly maintained the firms would never have invested so deeply in those investments. Because the secondary market essentially froze up the mark to market prices plummeted and viola, crisis. There are tons of other non-investment grade bond markets that did not freeze up during the crisis because those securities were properly rated and valued all along.
    AIG was a secondary causualty because its securities lending operation had completely overextended itself NOT beacuse of losses in the insurance side. They could have easily survived the insurance loses, which were margin calls not actual losses btw). When assets being used as collateral plummet its pretty easy to go onder if you've overextended. The frozen markets caused an artifical price crash to levels well below the actual value, with proper ratings/risk values assigned.
    Basically you think that greed explains everything. Too simple and too wiling to look for a scapegoat. Do your homework.
  • lburkefiles
    I am not sure that the ratings were fraudulent, that implies an informed purposeful intent. However being reasonably intelligent, arrogant and blind - you can arrive at the same destination by error with ease….

    Also there was a secondary market - but it was not an organized exchange that backed the enforcement of the investment agreements. Traders and Investors missed the risk of a non-exchange traded investment contracts and the collection risks associated with them. A non-transparent market with no enforcement of the agreements is hardly a barometer to market value - either high or low. It became market SWAG.
  • Methinks1776
    I don't think lack of organized exchange was the problem. These securities were incredibly illiquid and would have remained incredibly illiquid and suffered all of the associated problems of illiquid securities even in the presence of an organized exchange. Plenty of liquid assets trade off organized exchanges and don't suffer the same problems that illiquid assets do - whether the illiquid assets are traded on organized exchanges or not.
  • lburkefiles
    Thank You Methinks1776,

    I agree that an exchange does not provide liquidity, only traders provide liquidity.

    What an exchange does provide is assurance of settlement. This is done through both rules and capital requirements for all of the brokerages and their clients. It is these capital requirements that are required of the clients and the brokerage that provide solid and understood financial backing for settlement without default. This backing, in part, takes the form of deposits of client held by brokerage and deposits of brokerages held by the exchange. There are typically also minimum net capital requirements updated daily depending upon the deposits held by the clients and thus the brokerages by the exchange. The brokers pay for all defaults of their clients, and the exchange pay for all of the defaults of it member brokerages.

    The issue of liquidity, or lack there of, for any given derivative or option or CDS would be reflected both in the exchange traded price of the item as well as the price volatility. Illiquid items have a greater volatility then liquid items and thus "risk modeling" will require more reserves or margin for those who choose to trade illiquid items.

    If I may make this analogy I have stolen from Sheetwise… (theft with attribution) Assume Super Nag is running in the 5th race. Odds are 100 : 1. Weary with great discussion you and sheetwise bet $500 each on the nag with me - the bookie at the conversation bar. The market, or the paramutual wagering system never gets wind of these bets so the odds and the race goes off at 500 : 1. The market never gets the information of all of the other bets - it becomes starved of transactional information that would normally be available in an open, regulated and reasonably transparent market. What could have been a market enforced contract is now a private contract without the enforcement or backing of the exchange. Holy (^@& Super Nag wins! - It is highly unlikely you will ever collect, unless of course we socialize the losses and require a special tax on everyone else in the bar to pay my losses. TARP - Taxing All Reliable Patrons.

    Thus, for the future, it would be better for the financial institutions and companies who engage in these types of investment contracts to focus on setting up an exchange. In particular an exchange with enforced settlement and transparency. Those contracts not traded on an exchange like these should receive severe haircut to value for valuations purposes.

    Thanks
  • txslr
    The types of risk models that are run by exchanges to determine the proper margin to post against a position are also run by the trading houses. The standard derivatives master contracts call for posting collateral against losses (which was, we are told, what triggered the problem at AIG). It seems to me that the biggest difference between the exchanges and the OTC markets in this regard is that nearly anyone who can post margin can trade on an exchange, but only those who can pass credit muster with an entire group of trading houses can play in the OTC market. So doctors and dentists can trade futures, but they can't get into the interest rate swaps OTC market.

    What would have happened in the exchange's risk models suddenly turned out to be wrong and the biggest traders were unable to post margin? At some point even the exchange fails.

    A more useful innovation might be credit clearing for OTC derivatives, which has been the "wave of the future" for some years now. The big beneift to credit clearing in a crisis is that it allows multiparty credit netting in an efficient and timely manner.
  • SheetWise
    "... and the biggest traders were unable to post margin? At some point even the exchange fails."

    Yes. Like when a bookie ignores the fundamentals.

    A lot of people look at gambling as analogues to naked trading, when in fact (from the books perspective) gaming is a composition of markets that are very well (and self) regulated, that not only enforce discipline but understand risk. To the book, it's not gambling at all.

    Naked trading is gambling. First, there is no foundation to serve as a residual for a loss, risk is amplified for the feedback loop reasons mentioned earlier as well as others, and they are based upon the lie that the same money can both represent equity and be spent. This was rampant. The players in this mess were simply amateurs -- I have no idea why people give them so much credit.
  • SheetWise
    The funny thing is that most of these guys (especially those at AIG!) are really just gamblers in suits. They think they're above it all and that they have domesticated risk. The type of errors they made would never have happened by someone like Ed Thorpe, who had real pit knowledge and understood gaming.

    If you want well behaved and well regulated markets, put Steve Wynn in charge -- not Barney Franks. Risk is a funny thing, and best understood by people who see it every day. Everyone tries to tame it, but only fools will turn their back to it.

    The most successful bookies I've ever known worked Wall Street at one time or another -- because they're such easy marks.
  • nailheadtom
    How did an individual decision maker at these firms evaluate the situation? Did he feel that he had to join the party to remain effective in the business? Did he feel that a negative outcome would be so catastrophic as to require government intervention? Or, did he feel that regardless of what might happen to an individual bank or segment of the banking community, or the government response, his personal assets acquired in the business would in practical terms insulate him from personal financial disaster? Even if his employer went under, his bonus would enable him to make alimony payments for the foreseeable future.
  • Economiser
    Right. It's the revealed preferences that are really telling. The major banks were all obscenely profitable up until about 2007. If the bankers thought that was really the way to go, they would've put a large chunk of their own personal investments side-by-side with the bank's. How many really did?
  • Methinks1776
    MANY employees of the bank (including Managing Directors and Goldman partners) were invested in the bank - which is the same as investing in the banks' investments. Very often, individuals cannot invest in the same deals as the institution can, so the only way to invest in those deals is by investing in the bank. All of the CEOs of the firms had a very large portion of their net worth invested in the banks they managed.
  • danielkuehn
    I'm not so sure about this logic. Different people have different preferences. What reason do you have for thinking that bankers' personal preferences are the same as their shareholders'?

    They are paid to make risky investments - that's their job. Just because they're good at that job doesn't mean that they aren't personally risk averse.
  • danielkuehn
    Or not good at that job, as the case may be :) The point is that says absolutely nothing about their personal preferences or risk aversion.
  • Hunter
    Russ, I would look at the CDS spreads for Bear Stearns and Lehman just prior to bankruptcy. They shot through the roof, suggesting market participants were not expecting to be bailed out.
  • That’s a “herd reaction” - once it became clear that Bear’s collateral wasn’t fungible, the jig was up. But before that, they were at least mildly stable.

    And that’s a common theme for counterparty risk: nobody knows the true extent of it until the unwinding begins.

    Since Bear was not a Fed member bank, they were only an indirect bailout candidate (JPM escorted them to the Fed window, and eventually bought them).
  • russroberts
    That is important but not decisive. There was uncertainty about whether there would be a bailout. So when the information became well-known that these guys were in trouble you would expect CDS spreads to jump. It's a tough hypothesis to test or refute. My best evidence is what people did with their own money. They were prudent with it. All this stuff about dancing while the music played was with other people's money.
  • danielkuehn
    RE: "My best evidence is what people did with their own money. They were prudent with it. All this stuff about dancing while the music played was with other people's money."

    But it was also their job to take risks with other people's money in a way that it wasn't to take risks with their own. I don't think there's any reason to believe or expect that shareholder preferences (or at least the preferences that shareholders were able to incentives the managers to pursue) would be the same as the preferences of that same manager as a private individual, is there? Put it this way - it seems to me you would have to demonstrate that, you wouldn't be able to just assume that.

    Or if I'm misunderstanding you, and what you mean by being more prudent with "their own money" is that they were more prudent with less leveraged investments, I think you have an endogeneity concern here. Did the leverage lead to the unsound risk taking, or did the misdiagnosis of an unsound risk as a sound risk allow leverage to go higher than it otherwise would have? i.e. - did they put more money into unsound MBS's because it wasn't their money or did they get a lot of borrowed money because people trusted MBS's when they shouldn't have? Finance is not my thing but that would be my question. I'm still not clear how you think you have teased out the direction of causality there.
  • Fundamentally, there will always be moral hazard if you have lenders of last resort like the Fed. There is no way to avoid that.

    The operative question becomes:

    How do we mitigate this without removing the stability provided by the backstop?

    I haven’t thought thru the whole thing yet.
  • The business of a bank is borrowing and lending money. Banks currently face two problems. The first is a crisis of confidence: people who lent them money aren’t sure they will get it back, because no bank – no matter how sound – could pay back all its creditors at once
  • russroberts
    And the right one is? (This was supposed to be a comment on mesaeconguy's comment that I was looking at the wrong pattern...)
  • Sorry, the “right” one is incentives, as you taught me.

    Those incentives warped (some) decision making, and were mostly created by government.

    Were it not for CRA, FNM, FRE, and FHA, the damage would have been far less than we see. And it’s still happening: Congress, in their infinite wisdom, refuses to acknowledge the genesis of the problem, and now has placed ridiculous constraints on financial intermediation, while simultaneously demanding that banks lend money to unqualified parties.

    That’s it, nothing special.

    FWIW, I’ve read part of Gillian Tett’s book (mentioned above), and it was remarkably uninsightful.

    I have had a front-row seat to this mess, and would be considered expert witness in a legal setting.
  • Were it not for CRA, FNM, FRE, and FHA, the damage would have been far less than we see.

    And the gas pump FED.
  • danielkuehn
    I'm really looking forward to this essay, because honestly this is the one component of your argument that I have major doubts about as well, despite the provision of one British anecdote. Even if there was an inkling that there might be a bailout, I don't see how that could actually drive the decision-making. If they could forsee a crisis like this and if they could forsee a bailout in response, it hardly seems to make the risks affordable. Yes, on the margin it reduces their expected costs - but not nearly enough to make the choice of taking on those risks optimal.

    So even if they were aware of the potential for a bailout (which still seems dubious), I think black swan psychology or Minsky bubble psychology makes more sense as a candidate for explaining the run up to the crisis. Either way - I'm interested in the arguments that are going to be put forward in the essay.
  • SickOfHayek
    The institutions of American and British capitalism were so arrogant by 2002 on neo-liberal and even neo-Conservative triumphalism that the idea of a failure could not enter their imagination.

    What were the decision makers thinking in 2004 as they pushed sub-prime. Interest rates were low and they could keep interest rates low by selling dollars if the fed raised the rate. The Fed was run by a nut case anyways.

    Their main concern was getting the second or third home, scoring some coke, humiliating other people at the work place, and hiding as much of their wealth as they could from taxes while showing it off to the people around.

    When the unthinkable happened and their world collapsed they used their total control of global economies to force a bailout to save as much as they could.

    And now that they have been secured they are starting to use the media to get this Hayek trash that caused the problem in the first place back on the table. They have the public money in place of the private wealth they destroyed, and now they want the public sector brought down they they can control the people who own them better.
  • danielkuehn
    RE: "scoring some coke"

    I think you're mixing this crisis up with the S&L crisis.

    Generally speaking arguments lose a lot of credibility for me when they start tossing around the word "neo-liberal". I suppose it's a meaningful word to a certain extent if you just use it as a general descriptor of a policy position... but when it's used as some sort of zeitgeist that determines events or when it gets anthropomorphized practically into an actor in it's own right, my eyes start to glaze over.
  • SickOfHayek
    First of all I work a great deal in the City of London, and before that in the Chicago board of trade. Coke, money and tail are essentially all the twisted humans who work in investment banking want. They are a sick set of animals.

    Neo-liberal is an excellent term. Though there are many different flavor of neo-liberal that extent in to neo-conservative, but they share a common clear set of beliefs.

    Essentially they believe that unregulated markets with low tax rates on their profits would reach equilibrium and produce more wealth than more regulated more tax markets.

    Its an idea that was kind of tried, as well as any ideology can ever be tried in reality. And as far as it was tried it has been clear disproved. The bailouts costs was far more than any reductions in government spending caused by Reagan and Thacher and their following Regimes over the past 30 years.

    Just as the opponents of neo-liberalism said, the markets would collapse to such an extent it would cost the public sector more than if Jimmy Carter had won a second term and the Tories had not taken the government of England in the 1980s. And this is essentially true. Nations like Germany and France which did not deregulate to the same extent did not suffer the same kind of collapse. It was America's housing and banking markets which, under the most pro-free market leader the world has likely ever seen, that the disaster happened.
  • Essentially they believe that unregulated markets with low tax rates on their profits would reach equilibrium and produce more wealth than more regulated more tax markets.

    Its an idea that was kind of tried,


    This is where you seem to depart from reality.
  • anon
    It's not that people thought they'd be bailed out, it's that they assumed the other guy would be. Thus they could buy all the derivatives they wanted to protect themselves, even though their counterparty had no chance of remaining solvent in a situation where protection was really needed.
  • SickOfHayek
    Well what we have is one un-named banker, some bankers saying nothing, and other banks not saying anything. No evidence at all here.

    Did the bankers take high risks because they knew failure was likely but the government would bail them out? That is simply the idiotic refrain the people trying to save neo-liberalism put out. Why would a bank ruin itself on the prospect of a bailout. If the bank decision making felt a collapse was likely the profit that could be from being one of the few banks with solid balance sheets would have been massive.

    The problems were firstly, as anyone who has worked in a major business can tell you, that culture form decisions not humans. Making economics a science of human decision making misses the point, economic decisions are make by cultures with their own history. These cultures construct what is taken to be rational, and in the case of the banks in the Bush years going after the only opportunity monetary policy allowed them was going after housing.

    Also there is even rational reasons to assume that most of the people trapped in the banks would not have seen subprime as that risky. The Housing market had "always gone up", in fact moving from technology investment to housing market was generally seen as a kind of growing up after the technology stop bust of the late 1990s.

    Finally it was not that the banks and wider markets were sitting their waiting for a government that might or might not bail them out. This was not an information but power issues. The markets are always determined to force the State to bail it out. The markets seeks profit no matter the source. If it comes from tax dollars than great for the market, its still money. And taxes have a security that sales can never match. So markets will push these issues further and further, exploring the boundaries of state support.

    But its not just information, the markets can hold the entire economy hostage until the government acts. If the US government had not bailed out Freedie and Fannie, and let all the major investment banks fall, the markets would and banks would have forced the government to do something.

    This is very easy, free markets can always find the point that no State is willing to go under. Perhaps the state is untroubled by the sight of 10s of milllions of people in bread lines, no problem drive the economy even lower until the industrial base is in question. At some point the state will see this as an issue of national defense and do something.

    But why even bother with all that, the markets produce the wealth that owns the media, funds the elections, pays the parties, basically runs the world. They can always get their way in time. When the free markets decide they want the state to bail out an industry it will be bailed out, assuming the desire is general enough. They need only sell until the state responds.

    Even the bailout fatigued EU with voters sick of bailouts is finding itself forced to bailout Greece. There is nothing that can be done. The free markets now see the State as the force that will secure their risk, and they are even looking for profits to be made when bailouts are announced. Time and time again the story of modern free markets is the story of traders forcing states to bend to their will.
  • russroberts
    Banks don't make decisions. People do. You ask "Why would a bank ruin itself on the prospect of a bailout." If you look at the bankers and not the banks, you'll see that they weren't ruined at all.
  • txslr
    This is an interesting issue from an agency cost perspective. One constant criticism of senior management compensation is that they get paid whether or not their companies (e.g. banks) do well or poorly. In that regard their compensation looks much more like an endowment or a bond than equity and as a result they tend to be more risk averse than the shareholders. This is the classic underinvestment issue. And yet the criticism here seems to be that bank managers were behaving so much like equity holders that they were actively involved in taking on massive amounts of risk in order to transfer wealth from debt to equity holders.

    Inconsistent, to say the least.
  • Methinks1776
    Well, at least the ones who still have jobs, Russ.
  • I suspect that even many that no longer have their original jobs still made out pretty well.
  • danielkuehn
    And I should note - this isn't some right wing, neo-liberal mind game. Joe Stiglitz agrees with this logic as well. He just thinks that we should provide guarantees and risk regulation, whereas Russ thinks we should scrap the guarantees. Stiglitz would suggest that Russ is going to create a very volatile and fragile financial system with his proposal. Russ would argue that Stiglitz is going to create an inefficient financial system with his proposal. But they both agree that when sticks and carrots are out of proportion with each other, banks are going to take on too many unjustifiable risks. So it's not an inherently "neo-liberal" argument at all.
  • SickOfHayek
    You utterly fail to see the key point.

    Its not that a prospect of bailout exists, its that the markets as a whole KNOW they can, through their behavior force bailouts.

    Look at Greece. Right now their is not desire even among EU's left wing parties (if there are any left) to use their tax payers money to bailouot Greece. But Greece will be bailed out because the markets can force the issue.

    By simply acting like you are not going to bailout the economy under and conditions you force the markets to be more radical and creative in finding ways to force the state to underwrite risk. But the markets will always find this.

    If the markets have losses they need underwritten or simply want access to public money they can always find a point of crisis which is greater than any state can accept. In fact this is fairly easy for them. If they just put out a flood of unfilled sell orders on a currency they can create a threat to national security of a nation. Governments can face the prospect of giving in to the markets of not being able to buy needed military systems, or losing ground in science and technology to key enemies.

    When a free market decides it needs to force the government to act in a certain way it always will find the point for force it.

    In the 1970s it was to force governments to embrace this silly Hayek trash. Markets were deregulated and investors pushed massive boom and bust cycles. That has failed and now markets can force the state to accept Keynes and bail them out. Once the issue is stable and enough public money has moved to private investors they will use "thinkers" like Russ to force the Hayek nightmare again to secure their private ownership and pursue new cycles of boom and bust.

    We have seen over the 30 years that it is impossible to build any institutions that will not ultimately be bent to the demands of the markets. I remember central banks were going to free us from elected governments failings, but by 2001 the markets that the banks wrapped around their fingers.

    There seems to be a basic inability to see what is happening. Russ cherry picks the economic news, most of it out of date, to try and force a point without responding to the big picture as it happens. His failure to discuss Greece is pretty telling of how strong the ideological blinders are strapped to his economic thinking.
  • danielkuehn
    So if "markets" - which I agree with Russ, don't make decisions - want government support they deliberately wreck the market (ie - themselves) to get it? Just say that out loud - you'll realize how silly it sounds.

    I think the story that Stiglitz and Krugman put forward is more convincing: when deposit insurance first emerged people weren't dumb - they knew they had to regulate risk as well or else the excessive risk taking dynamics that Russ describes would take effect. So they regulated risk and for several decades the financial system did it's job, there were no financial crises at all, and as Krugman describes it, that sector was "boring". Several decades of functional operation lead a lot of people to think that some deregulation would be fine. And they were probably right - SOME deregulation was probably fine and warranted. But ultimately a lot of the risk regulations were scrapped while most of the guarantees were kept, and we find ourselves in our current situation. Obviously that's oversimplisitic but I think it's a lot more plausible than yours - which essentially amounts to a conspiracy theory against the public.
  • SickOfHayek
    I don't think you understand how markets work. Markets have developed complex instruments of sales so that they can cause harm in one way and still profit.

    Traders can make almost any bet to make profit for themselves. They can short a currency or market to profit on its fall. Traders can drive down the price of a currency or commodity and then profit when it returns to a more stable price.

    Advanced trading entities can move money from one area to another. For example they can sell Euros to buy gold, causing the Euro to drop. If a majority of traders decided they wanted to see the EU do a certain policy in response to say a crisis in one small member state (lets call it Greece) they can sell Euros to buy dollars or gold or oil futures until the price of the Euro fell so much that it put in danger the budgets of all the Eurozone members. The Eurozone members would then have to decide to bail out the member nation or try to play a waiting game with the markets. The problem is in a global market there is always someplace else to go. I may live in France but I can move my assets rapidly to India or China or America or even keep them in Europe but to place short bets on everything. I could sell Euros to buy gold. If me and the boys who dine at the same places get drunk we make discuss places we could invest, we could collude while hanging out in the pubs in the City of London or Wall Street or the other tiny areas where most of the worlds money managers live.

    The money managers have a limitless supply of places to move their money. And in so doing they can force the Euro down more and more until they find the point where the EU governments have no option but to do what we want.

    This is the nightmare that deregulation and reduced capital taxes have brought us. Since the 1980s we have seen an endless cycle of boom and bust. And we have seen the top agents in the investment market gain so much power and wealth that they now can set government policy to move public wealth to private enterprises

    I frankly think there is nothing that can be done right now. But I refuse to celebrate the theories that were used to inflict this nightmare on us. Essentially today democracy no longer exists. Leaders have their economic polices imposed by a few thousand of the top money managers who essentially rule the world. The only government with any real power seems to be communist China.

    Again look at what is a happening in Greece. The world economy is giving us an example of how it works. There is no public demand at all in the EU nations for a bailout. But one will come. Because the global investment community sense an opportunity to gain more German and French wealth.

    The sad reality is that Hayek's name must be added to that of Marx as a brilliant thinker who produced theories that reduced human freedom and justified the concentration of power in the hands of a tiny ruthless elite.
  • danielkuehn
    Your point here is largely that creditors have sway over governments and that currency traders do as well. Of course. I'd agree with that. But that's a very different point from what you were making above. Currency traders and creditors care about how countries are managed and they're going to have an opinion and they have aright to have an opinion. Many people have argued that it's precisely the dispersed power of public creditors that has provided insurance against the rise of autocracies and tyrants.

    That's all very different from what you said earlier about the market doing things to force the public to bail it out and to force the public to give it resources. That's the position I was criticizing. Creditors and currency traders can let it be known when they're displeased with a country's policies, but they can't extort anything that they didn't have a contractual right to in the first place.
  • I don't think you understand how markets work.

    He has a fair comprehension of how markets work, certainly better than yours.

    The problem here is your narrow and exclusive definition of "markets".
  • danielkuehn
    And not just his narrow and exclusive definition, but his anthromorphization of markets.
  • danielkuehn
    RE: "Well what we have is one un-named banker, some bankers saying nothing, and other banks not saying anything. No evidence at all here."

    My thoughts exactly. I think we're going to have to wait for Russ's essay.

    RE: "That is simply the idiotic refrain the people trying to save neo-liberalism put out. Why would a bank ruin itself on the prospect of a bailout. If the bank decision making felt a collapse was likely the profit that could be from being one of the few banks with solid balance sheets would have been massive."

    I take your point, but I don't think this is exactly the right angle to criticize Russ's argument from. You need to think on the margin. No, the prospect of bailouts isn't going to make a crash palatable. But it will make it marginally less unpalatable, and it will marginally shift their risk assessments which is still going to impact their decisions. Now, I agree that I can't see it impacting their decisions as much as Russ suggests it does - and I think this point has to be completely swamped by black swan psychology and Minsky bubble psychology. But Russ's logic is sound in that it should and will have some marginal impact. You can't just look at it in terms of "I used to be afraid of a crash but now that a crash won't hurt at all I'm going to take all this risk". That is not the argument that Russ is putting forward. He, like most economists, is thinking about marginal behavior.
  • Matt C
    Well, back in the 90s we bailed out Russia and Mexico. Anybody know what kind of stake Goldman Sachs had in Russian and Mexican bonds around those times?

    We had just gotten done bailing out the S&Ls too.

    Why *wouldn't* savvy Wall Street players use their connections to figure out who is going to get a bailout? Or plan on being able to cry "systemic risk" if things do blow up?

    Re Friedman's argument, a) of course there were many of credulous bankers who took the AAA ratings seriously, the question is were there important players who were consciously gaming the system, and b) who is going to admit that they were hedging their bets on expectation of taxpayer bailouts?
  • Bill Stepp
    Henry Paulson says in his recent book _On the Brink_ cites several bank CEOs who expressed misgivings about excessive risk taking and lowered underwriting standards. They didn't pull back for fear of losing market share to more aggressive competitors. There's an old Wall Street adage that profit margins follow market share, so they likely thought that their profits would have lagged behind, putting a dent in their stock prices.
  • SeanAmavisca
    So this guy doesn't believe in moral hazard. Nobody wants the hazard to happen, but knowing their is an apparatus to eliminate a bulk of the risk will surely factor into their calculations.
  • Ward
    Hate to break this to you all but they merged with banks and went public and levered up and did securitizations all for the same reason...they made more money that way. No thought of govt just the fact that the capital was not their own.
  • Barbarossa
    Well, this goes back to the institutionalization by government of fraudulent fractional-reserve banking and explicit FDIC bailout guarantees for depositors of conventional commercial banks that may have merged with the investment banks, which gave them greater access to capital, so of course down the line of everyone involved in this mess there is extreme moral hazard and a lack of due diligence. And don't forget the government's dirty hands in securitization via Fannie and Freddie.
  • ddanta
    See my post up top in reply to your comment.
  • russroberts
    But why did people supply the capital? At fixed rates of return with no share in the upside?
  • txslr
    Related to my questions above, for commericials the answer is easy - deposit insurance. For depositors the question of the riskiness of mortage finance portfolios was of no interest whatever. For I-banks, the obvious answer is "because no one thought the asset portfolios were that risky." And by no one I mean bank management as well as lenders.

    The more interesting question, I think, centers on why everyone thought that.


    Critics of markets immediately conclude that it was because of mass insanity. This seems wrong-headed to me, and not only because it raises the question of why the markets only went insane in real estate finance.
  • Ward
    I think a great deal of the capital the brokers got was risk capital, they made a spread at least, that did not believe for a variety of reasons that the worst would happen, moral hazard definitely plays a role but as one who works in the industry I think the NBA analog from Ike Pigot makes sense or the caprecious way speed limits are enforced on Interstate 95 so there are cops pretending you're supposed to go 55mph while every one is going 80 and you worry about getting caught and paying a fine, neither you nor the guy that let you rent his car thought there would be a giant colision. One reason they didn't think that could be that speed limits and cops prevent a few wrecks but really they all just get caught up in the race.
  • No, they didn’t “all merge” and "lever up” at the same time.

    There was a definite movement to excessive leverage, but that had nothing to do with “greedy, selfish, cold-hearted, avaricious money-grovelers.”

    Let’s be clear:

    1) incentives – short-end curve interest rates induced borrowing, for short-term investments (real-estate flippers were right there)

    2) incentives, 2 - massive CRA, related incentives induced (“encouraged”) lenders to lend shitloads of capital to unqualified buyers, mostly under threat of regulatory penalty.

    3) incentives, 3 – banks eventually became drunk on the “carry trade” – they ate their own crap cooking (loan securitization, including FRE, FNM), because the ror was so good, they forgot about the risk/return (CAPM), that should’ve tipped them off. Increased rates=increased risk. They failed to recognize how much additional risk.

    3*a) There is a management control factor on Wall St. that contributed majorly here. The underlings were so intimidated by “upper level” “management” that they all kowtow to them, from newby to Larry Fink.


    Let this be a lesson to us all: Never listen to your parents.
  • The "moral hazard," further down the stream, argument against "stimulus" misses the point, that, from the very outset, taking from productive to give to unproductive parts of the system does not stimulate but depresses it.
  • danielkuehn
    I would just note, though, that stimulus advocates agree with this point too. Crudely put, the whole point is to get resources to productive parts of the economy that aren't being utilized. There is absolutely no point in moving resources to unproductive uses. I know that opens a whole different can of worms that you would also take issue with - I just don't want you to think that this essentially tautological point you make is lost on stimulus advocates. Far from it - it's the primary consideration of stimulus advocates.
  • There is absolutely no point in moving resources to unproductive uses.

    But that is the entire purpose in political intervention.
    There is no need to tell investors to take a risk for potential rewards.
  • danielkuehn
    There is no need to tell investors to take a risk for potential rewards TO THE INVESTOR. There are many rewards to many activities that don't express themselves in incentives to investors (ie - public goods). There is also absolutely no guarantee that the pursuit of these rewards is consistent with full employment. There is also no guarantee that investors' assessment of thse rewards isn't going to be unnecessarily bearish. I can't make heads or tails of your first sentence.
  • Because government is "non-profit" we should not call its spending "investment" as there is no way to tell if its investment was worth the cost.

    Government built many highways which made railroads less profitable. Now we have government "investing" in mass transit to get people off of the highways. Government mass transit requires perpetual subsidy to get enough people to use it to nominally justify its existence.

    I understand we have to take everything that is as a given, but after the collapse we should undertake to understand why and what not to do next time.
  • danielkuehn
    RE: "Because government is "non-profit" we should not call its spending "investment" as there is no way to tell if its investment was worth the cost."

    I think that's silly. I work for a non-profit and we make investments. An investment is simply a good that is not consumed, but is used for future production.
  • I think that's silly. I work for a non-profit and we make investments. An investment is simply a good that is not consumed, but is used for future production.

    May I assume the non-profit gets the returns?

    What occurs to me after writing the above and other posts is that Americans have created such vast amounts of wealth that we have been able to also bear vast amounts of waste without even realizing it.

    I enjoy driving on the highways, we'll see how maintenance endures, and I appreciate the convenience, but it does bother me that so much of the services, such as mass transit provided by gov't requires perpetual and substantial subsidy so they can keep prices low enough to get people to use it.

    It seems to me that there is something wrong with this picture.
  • danielkuehn
    Certainly there is waste. But I think you make certain assumptions about public goods and externalities (and this shows in our discussion of pollution too), that leads you to label things "wasteful" unjustifiably.

    I can't price out the costs of pollution and you justifiably ask me for my confidence in the reality of those costs. Usually all I can do is cite people that have been looking into these issues for a very long time, because that's precisely the problem at hand - the costs and benefits involved CAN'T be priced in a market. Why do you assume you've successfully identified this as a cost or as waste?

    As is often remarked, economics is largely about the unseen. You show a considerable degree of confidence in your grasp of the unseen.
  • Economiser
    The anti-stimulus counter-argument is: how does the government know better than the market which use is "productive" and which "unproductive?" You're speaking the language of central planning, which has been an abject failure everywhere it's been tried.

    The core resources are still available in the market. A recession and corresponding decline in employment and demand simply makes resources cheaper (both manufacturing inputs and labor). Cheaper resources, in and of themselves, will spur new investment and economic growth without requiring the opaque hand of the government placing the resources here or there.

    Edit: to bring this back to Russ's post, imagine what would've happened if all the teetering major investment banks were allowed to fail? The assets of those investment banks -- the people -- don't disappear. They just get cheaper, in that they all go looking for new jobs and, as a group, will likely get paid less. Those peoples' labor is a resource, and other firms can put it to good use especially now that it is more affordable.
  • danielkuehn
    Well I think the point is the market does know better - you need to pay attention to market signals like wage growth and interest rates.

    RE: "The core resources are still available in the market. A recession and corresponding decline in employment and demand simply makes resources cheaper (both manufacturing inputs and labor). Cheaper resources, in and of themselves, will spur new investment and economic growth"

    In most circumstances I absolutely agree with you on this. The concern only comes in when resources can't get cheap enough. These adjustments aren't instantaneous, and in liquidity trap situations or even serious instances of price rigidity capacity unnecessarily wastes away because the adjustment doesn't happen quick enough.

    Central planners presume they know better than the economy and can guide growth. That's not an assumption of any theory supporting stimulus. It's not an assumption I've ever held. The relevant assumption is that the market, in certain well-defined circumstances, can stall out and break down. Government is never assumed to be a more efficient allocator of resources than the market - but what it can do is take exogenous, purposive action to reintroduce conditions under which the market can once again efficiently allocate resources. And yes, there are definitely risks of misallocation when you get the government involved like that - but those risks are greatly minimized in depressionary conditions.
  • In most circumstances I absolutely agree with you on this. The concern only comes in when resources can't get cheap enough.

    But the effect of stimulus is to prevent them from getting cheaper.
  • danielkuehn
    No, you have it exactly backwards. The effect of stimulus is to avoid the rapid output adjustment so price adjustment can occur. The concern is with real prices, not nominal prices. A falling general price level means rising labor costs if wages are fixed and rising debt burdens.
  • A falling general price level means rising labor costs if wages are fixed and rising debt burdens.

    Would you reword this?

    The effect of stimulus is to avoid the rapid output adjustment so price adjustment can occur.

    I assume this is according to theory. How is it proven to be the case?

    If the monetary authority dumps money/credit into the market as stimulus, then the effect should be to sustain nominal prices by stimulating demand.

    How do you difine "real" price?
  • danielkuehn
    To reword: A falling general price level means rising labor costs if nominal wages are fixed (or slow to adjust). A falling general price level also means rising debt burdens.

    Theory and empirical findings for the effect of stimulus - however the result only holds under conditions where resources are underutilized and equilibrium can't be reached through price adjustments.

    By real price I simply mean prices in constant dollars - inflation adjusted.
  • A falling general price level means rising labor costs if nominal wages are fixed (or slow to adjust). A falling general price level also means rising debt burdens.

    Rising labor costs relative to revenue; same for debt burden.

    Then the aim of stimulus is to sustain revenue so that labor and debt costs maintain proportion to a business budget.

    OR, in other words, stimulus attempts to delay the discovery of malinvestment by keeping business in business.

    How is it determined which resources are underutilized and how is it known when and how to stop stimulating?

    How is the response of investors factored in?

    By real price I simply mean prices in constant dollars - inflation adjusted.

    In other words, real prices are determined by comparing to a nominal price of the past.
  • danielkuehn
    "Then the aim of stimulus is to sustain revenue so that labor and debt costs maintain proportion to a business budget."

    No, the aim of stimulus is to make use of idle resources that are only idle because price adjustment isn't occuring. High labor costs are just a symptom of the lack of price adjustment.

    "OR, in other words, stimulus attempts to delay the discovery of malinvestment by keeping business in business."

    What exactly do you mean by malinvestments? I think people overstate the usefulness of this concept. In short, no, I don't think that's what stimulus attempts to do. The whole point of stimulus is to make new investment to put idle resources to work, which in turn gets money back in the hands of workers who are idle not because of a malinvestment but because of malfunctioning of the market. So the increase in aggregate demand that is caused by stimulus is ultimately going to be the demand of these idle workers. I don't see how a reasonable definition of "malinvestment" can include the goods and services these idle workers demand. Yes, there are going to be malinvetments out there that are certainly being unwound right now, but I don't see what stimulus has to do with prolonging them. If anything prolongs the discovery process it's the banking policy we've been pursuing - not stimulus (there's also always the caveat that some of the new government investments could potentially be malinvestments - that's a risk that exists whenever a new investment is made).

    "How is it determined which resources are underutilized and how is it known when and how to stop stimulating?"

    I never understand why people get hung up on this point. The market determines this. All the government does is do a lot of deficit spending to soak up underutilized resources in credit markets. There's going to be some humanitarian relief from things like UI or food stamps that will increase consumer demand, and there's going to be some public goods investment, but ultimately the stimulus comes from using up resources in the credit market so interest rates become binding interest rates again - so that price adjustment in the credit market can occur again. Then the market allocates resources just like it always did. Aside from a few bridges and school construction projects, the government isn't picking winners with stimulus. It's not deciding what is underutilized and what isn't.

    RE: "In other words, real prices are determined by comparing to a nominal price of the past."

    Yes. Come on, Sam. Don't play coy. What are you getting at? What are you hesitant about on this? This is a very standard definition. The point is you want to look at prices with some consistent standard of value for comparison. It doesn't matter what it is.
  • If wages aren't falling or rising then labor costs are fixed. No?
    How do labor costs increase, absolutely, if wages are neither rising or falling?

    No, the aim of stimulus is to make use of idle resources that are only idle because price adjustment isn't occuring.

    Why is price adjustment not occurring?

    It seems to me that housing prices adjusted, the estimate on our property is still adjusting.

    Let me try another take on real vs nominal price.

    Nominal prices are those that haven't been paid yet and may change, real prices are those that have been paid and therefore cannot change.

    Yes. Come on, Sam. Don't play coy. What are you getting at?

    I'm trying to discover the difference in our understanding.
  • danielkuehn
    RE: "How do labor costs increase, absolutely, if wages are neither rising or falling?"

    Nominal costs are fixed. Real costs are not. Firms make decisions based on real costs. The number on my paycheck doesn't change but the cost of that number to the firm and the value of that number to me does.

    RE: "Nominal prices are those that haven't been paid yet and may change, real prices are those that have been paid and therefore cannot change."

    No - nominal prices are prices in terms of dollars. But the value of a dollar changes over time. So consider the case of 5% annual inflation. Let's say my nominal salary is $100. Next year the nominal value of that salary is still going to be $100, but the real value of that salary is now reduced by 5% because prices have risen by 5% (so I can buy 5% less with the same nominal $100). So my real wage now is $95, even though my nominal wages is still $100. My labor costs less to my employer than it previously did. If prices had dropped by 5% the real value of my nominal $100 would be higher - it would be worth $105. That's a higher labor cost to my employer (because that's $5 more real dollars that they could have bought something else with), and by the same token it's of higher value to me because I can buy more with my salary even if I'm still making the same nominal $100.

    RE; "I'm trying to discover the difference in our understanding."

    I apologize for that - I didn't realize there was a misunderstanding on this. It's a very good thing to nail down.

    As for why price adjustments aren't occuring - that's a MUCH trickier question. In labor markets it's an easier question to answer - wages are negotiated, and the institutional nature of those negotiations make nominal wage adjustments hard - ESPECIALLY adjustments downward (economists often say that wages are downwardly rigid). Price insensitivity and price rigidity in credit markets is much harder to explain. Needless to say, it's empirically verified. Keynes tried to explain it with his theory of liquidity preference. Usually price adjustment does occur - in depressionary conditions, when interest rates are extremely low, price adjustment is harder simply because rates don't have flexibility to move much lower.
  • No - nominal prices are prices in terms of dollars. But the value of a dollar changes over time. So consider the case of 5% annual inflation. Let's say my nominal salary is $100.

    You don't need to explain inflation to me. The monetary unit is a floating reference.

    So when adjustments are made for inflation, economists look at nominal prices in the past and use that as a reference to compare to prices today and then say that today's dollar is worth some percentage of yesterdays dollar.

    Nominal costs are fixed. Real costs are not. Firms make decisions based on real costs. The number on my paycheck doesn't change but the cost of that number to the firm and the value of that number to me does.

    The ability of a business to afford any costs is dependent upon its revenue.

    Nobody likes their wages to decline, nobody likes to squeeze their profit margin, etc. So when conditions call for such, people turn to government to prevent it from happening.

    The easy way to satisfy those demands is to drop some money/credit into the system. Indeed, it does seem to work for a while

    I imagine savvy investors try to anticipate what the government will do in such situations.
  • Sorry, Daneil, but I don't know what you're talking about.

    Do you?
  • danielkuehn
    I do. What are you confused about - perhaps I can clarify.
  • I'm not confused about anything. It's perfectly clear to me that you were just spouting off without saying anything.

    This is the end of this conversation!
  • Barbarossa
    I absolutely agree with your point concerning draining the productive to support the unproductive, but my point addresses a more specific topic that has resulted from or is at least related to such a drain. While my argument may by omission "miss" your point, it was not my mission to dismiss it, and had my argument actually directly addressed your point, I can assure you, nothing would have been amiss.
  • Barbarian,

    You're still missing the point.

    The point is that, if a policy is counterproductive right from the start, the longer term consequences of it are not an issue, and, by making an issue of them, you imply that the policy was not counterproductive but effective right from the start.

    That's what your "moral hazard" argument does. Directed against the longer term rather than immediate effects of the policy, it implied that the immediate effects were what was intended, that the policy did in fact stave off a complete collapse. And that is just what was needed, whatever its cost later on. For there wouldn't have been any long run for the system if you hadn't saved it in the short run.

    Whereas your longer term argument against the policy still left not only the shorter but even the longer term argument for it, the shorter term argument against it wiped out all other arguments for it.

    By foregoing the shorter in favor of the longer term argument against the policy, you were really supporting it.
  • Barbarossa
    I don't see how my point supports the thesis that policy "staved off collapse." I don't believe that at all, or at least, I believe it in the sense that it very well may have prevented collapse, but at the cost of creating a bigger inevitable collapse in the future. I don't buy that there's such thing as a free lunch, as you seem to imply. I'm merely commenting on the mechanics of the crisis, which are still important, especially when trying to argue with people who don't understand the effects of government policy or who believe that this is the failure of markets. None of them are going simply to buy that "draining the productive to support the unproductive" led to this mess; while that's true in a very vague, general way, it doesn't explain the particular crisis. That's like saying that redistributionist taxes on the wealthy led to this crisis; it's like saying that the "big bang" led to the computer I'm typing on, but does that really meaningfully tell me about how the computer was manufactured? Honestly, I don't know why you harp on this point so much.
  • Barbie,

    Henry Paulson would say to you that “moral hazard” is the price we must pay for saving the system from imminent collapse, and that we can cross the "moral hazard" bridge when we get to it by means of proper regulation.

    So it is still necessary to tell him that his policy does not support but subverts the system, and does not save us from imminent collapse but hastens us to it.

    After that, the “moral hazard” argument is superfluous.

    Make it, if you like, but not to the exclusion of what is essential.
  • And here is how I would make the essential argument.

    http://econotrashtalk.org/#The_Cause_and_Cure_o...
  • At some point in time, we had to put a label on hair dryers that said "Don't use this in the bathtub, stupid."

    That's because some idiot actually did.

    In the case of the bankers, they had been trained to ignore the bathtub warning, because there was never any indication that the water in the bathtub presented the danger. So their playing in the tub never hurt them until now.

    So, it is correct that the tub-factor never entered into consideration, but only because they had been allowed to play risk-free for so long they never bothered to calculate them at all.
  • danielkuehn
    I agree - I think black swan thinking had much more to do with this than their relief at the bailout they expected.
  • vidyohs
    Ike, you and Mesa I think are both correct. From my street view, if they didn't know, they certainly had good reason to suspect they would get the support if it came to it.

    Business and government began creating this culture of "to big to fail" way back when Lee Iacocco was CEO of Chrysler.

    This, Ike, is the beginning of the training you spoke of.

    Then when banks were arm twisted to make loans to people that were extremely bad risks, it is difficult to believe that they did so without some kind of actual deal or an implicit understanding about having their asses covered when things inevitably went bad.
  • Barbarossa
    So true. And I really do believe that the bankers did indeed "plan" on being bailed; I think that they knew with virtual certainty. I mean, of course they did! They had former CEO of Goldman Sachs Hank Paulson as Treasury Secretary, a man whose original bailout proposal was two-pages long and essentially gave the executive branch unreviewable dictatorial powers over the banking system. I'm not trying to support any kind of nefarious conspiracy theory, but there is something very highly suspect about that original proposal which most people have forgotten, and I remember when I first read it that I was immediately struck by its implications.
  • vidyohs
    Mesa, Ike, and Barbarossa,

    Let us also not forget that congress gets to take advantage of their privileged "insider trading", it is inconceivable to me that congress did not know what was happening, and it is inconceivable to me that the banks did not keep congress in the loop.

    And, it is inconceivable to me that investments and profits would be allowed to evaporate when we the people could be tapped to cover their asses.
  • As inconceivable as it sounds, no one in Congress understands what happened, or what caused it (Barney Frank excepted: he knows damn well he is responsible for most of this).

    Granted, this was an extreme event, but I can probably count on 1 hand the number of Congresscritters with whom I could have an expert-level conversation on financial services and market structure, who might actually understand what I’m talking about.

    It’s that bad.
  • vidyohs
    Ummm, I see. I have new respect for Barney. Didn't know his intellect was that good.

    LOL. I am not sure understanding is required, surely in working with the bank lobbies they could hear and obey the words.....buy in now or sell out now?

    After all they understand the lobbies when told vote yes on this and vote no on that.

    Perdoan me cynicism but gosh, when the Mafia doesn't even trust the government, things have got to be pretty bad.
  • Tanks vids.

    BTW, Charlie Gasparino’s The Sellout is pretty good for storyline, though he’s too enamored of the Glass-Stegall repeal, and discusses no specifics of either the Chinese wall requirements, or how banks were already getting around that, and how anyone can get around that via a series of tri-party agreements and prime brokerage arrangements.

    He also misses a couple regional brokerage things here & there, but a good read.

    He also claims he’s an economic libertarian at the end of the book.

    Hmmmm.
  • Thanks - but I think there may be a better analogy.

    Kobe Bryant gets away with hand-checking on defense all season long, and finally starts getting called on it in the playoffs. He screams at David Stern, who tells the refs to lay off because Kobe is too big to fail.

    Yes, the behavior was against the rules, and against common sense. But when you "train" people that it's okay because you haven't allowed enforced the order, you create an environment where the players never consider the consequences of grabbing.
  • vidyohs
    Your talking enculturation now. That is the whole point about the "training" of enculturation, it contains good and bad, wise and stupid, strict and loose, ambitious and lazy, truth and lies, in short everything that enters the brain through all of the senses.

    Very few people know enough about enculuration to examine their own and control the negatives while taking advantage of the positives.

    It is how we become so trained to react positively to a lie that when we learn the truth we deny it.

    I am sorry, now I am getting off topic.
  • In the back of their minds, yes, they knew.

    Again, I do have to point to sheer ego as a leveler here, just as all of these egomaniacal nutjobs wanted to have the biggest & best downtown or midtown (now) corp. hq, NONE of them wanted to be “the guy who blew up.”

    They’re all “the guys who blew up” now.

    That’s instant death. Look at John Thain (runs CIT, now bankrupt).
  • ddanta
    The emphasis on the decision making of investment bankers is misplaced. The real concern is the incentives and constraints of the bondholders and lenders supplying the capital to the likes of Goldman, Merrill, and Morgan. Why supply credit when a firm is leveraged 40:1? Does the chance of a government bailout increase the likelihood of someone lending to an investment bank? Of course.

    The way I like to view the market is as a system of checks and balances: remove them and our financial sector truly is a House of Cards.
  • SickOfHayek
    Your use of language makes things confusing. The possibility of state intervention is not an independent entity of the investment or investor pre-existing.

    The investor's actions have power upon the state. The investor does not invest on the basis of a faith, but large bodies of investors know they can force the state to act in certain ways.

    There is always, in every state, a limit where an economic problem will become a problem of national security. Investors can create crisis that might undermine the security of the state to get tax bailouts.

    Look at what just happened in Greece. There is not desire in the EU governments to bailout Greece, the publics in the EU nations have not interest and I can find no socialist party outside of Greece pushing for a bailout of Greece's economy.

    But a bailout will come from the EU, because the investment markets know they can FORCE the bailout by trashing the Euro and EU markets.

    By constructing your ideas in a certain way that makes the investor an isolated powerless decision maker you pre-conclude your ideological assumptions.
  • S_M_V
    "The investor's actions have power upon the state. The investor does not invest on the basis of a faith, but large bodies of investors know they can force the state to act in certain ways."

    Your use of "Force" is incorrect. Just as no company can force me to purchase something, investors can not force states to take actions.

    Politicians may and should (but often don't) look at the consequences of their actions.

    "Look at what just happened in Greece. There is not desire in the EU governments to bailout Greece, the publics in the EU nations have not interest and I can find no socialist party outside of Greece pushing for a bailout of Greece's economy."

    Clearly if there was "no" interest in bailing out Greece in the other EU governments then they would not bail them out. Clearly the EU politicians feel it is in their best interest to bail out Greece.
  • Gunnlaugur
    That is very true. The bankers themselves, both employees with their bonus schemes and shareholders, have an incentive to leverage the banks as much as possible and take risk, even if it means that the banks are more likely to go belly up. It really doesn't matter if they believe that they will be bailed out.

    This is because they increase their upside potential while not changing the downside potential. The downside risk is always that the shares go to zero and there will be no bonuses. The ones bearing the added risk are the bond holders and lenders - or the government/Fed if they are to be bailed out. The bond holders and lenders would never have participated in this had they not believed in the Greenspan put, the Fed as a lender of last resort and government bailouts.
  • russroberts
    Exactly. That's the theme of the essay I'm working on.
  • ddanta
    In one of the EconTalk podcasts (Rebonato on Risk Management and the Crisis, I believe), your guest made two fatals errors in his analysis of the crisis: (1) he viewed moral hazard from the side of the decision-makers within the firm instead of from the view of the lenders; and (2) he sees government regulation of the financial system as the only effective way to reduce systemic risk. His argument for the second point is particularly flawed, which goes like this:

    An individual firm's economic calculation of risk only includes the total losses that it faces, not the potential disruption it could cause throughout the financial system. THEREFORE, a government regulator should implement policies to mitigate systemic risk.

    The first half of that argument is correct. The second half of that argument could not be more wrong. It's the great non sequitur: there is some problem; THEREFORE, the government should do _________. If you stop and think about the incentives facing the decision-makers in government, there is no reason whatsoever to believe that they would improve on whatever deficiency exists in the market. Why is it that this level of analysis (very basic in my opinion--I'm no economist after all) is never used when discussing the likely government policies that will be put in place--not the one's we Hope for?

    Looking at the actual policies implemented by the government, one should probably conclude that government policies actually INCREASED systemic risk- not the other way around!

    Anyway, glad to hear your writing on this subject, Dr. Roberts. I look forward to reading it.
  • russroberts
    Yes, it is weird that people assume that government, staffed by
    self-interested politicians and bureaucrats will do the bidding instead,
    of me. Or you. Or some ideal. Or the outcome of a fancy economic model.

    Rebonato's book is better than the podcast. The book, written before the
    crisis, is full of interesting stuff. In the podcast he was constrained
    potentially, by the fact that his employer, Royal Bank of Scotland, had
    gone bust and was taken over by the government. So you have to take his
    assessments with more than a few grains of salt. But read his book. It's
    a superb intro to the challenges of risk management and uncertainty.
  • ddanta
    Don't forget the Greenspan put!

    Also, I'd be curious to know if anyone had any thoughts on why some investment banks went public around the time they did. Does the Fed orchestrated rescue of Long Term Capital Management have anything to do with it?
  • russroberts
    Right again. Mostly. The first rescue of creditors was Continental Illinois, 1984. Highly leveraged. It was after that. Of course "after that, therefore because of that" is a logical fallacy. But it's suggestive.
  • It’s a pattern. Correct.

    You’re chasing the wrong one, Russ.
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