She Chose

by Don Boudreaux on February 6, 2010

in Health

Thanks to Andrew Garland for this link, which provides details about Melanie Shouse, the St. Louis woman who once worked for the Obama campaign and who died last week of breast cancer.

Contrary to the implication that I drew in my previous post, Mr. Obama did not know Ms. Shouse, so I was off-base to suggest that perhaps he should have personally paid for her medical care.

Ms. Shouse should have paid for it.

All the available evidence suggests that she could have afforded to do so.  First, — and contrary to what Mr. Obama said — Ms. Shouse did have health-insurance.  It was a catastrophic-coverage policy.  That is, annually her insurance paid nothing until her medical expenses hit $5,000.

So the most that she could have been out of pocket each year is $5,000.

That’s not a small sum of money, but nor is it a sum out of reach for most Americans.

Second, Ms. Shouse and her boyfriend, for 12 years, owned their own small business.  I have no idea how profitable it was, or is, but because they’d been in business for 12 years I infer that it did not leave them anywhere close to destitution.

Ms. Shouse also found time to volunteer to work for Mr. Obama’s presidential campaign.  This is time that she could have instead spent working at a job that paid her extra income.  But, as reported, she chose to contribute, free of charge, some of her time to a political campaign.

It’s quite possible that the value of the hours that Ms. Shouse contributed to Mr. Obama’s campaign exceeded the cost she would have incurred had she gone to the MD when she discovered a lump in her breast.

Third, Ms. Shouse knew that she had a lump in her breast and she knew that such a thing put her life in severe jeopardy.  Yet she chose not to spend up to a maximum of $5,000 annually (and likely less) to check this malady out with a physician.

Yes, she excused her failure to see a physician because, allegedly, she couldn’t afford it — that is, allegedly she couldn’t afford to pay up to $5,000 annually to save her life!

Her allegation is not believable.  Again, there’s no evidence that she was destitute.  She was wealthy enough to donate that most valuable of commodities — time — to a political campaign.  And her total, out-of-pocket annual expenses had she chosen to visit a physician when she discovered the lump in her breast would likely have been far lower than $5,000.

Fourth, she chose to buy a catastrophic-coverage policy, probably because the higher costs of policies with lower deductibles were not worthwhile for her to pay.  Given her choice, surely she and her boyfriend knew — or ought to have known — that each year there is a good chance that one or the other or both of them will require routine (that is, non-catastrophic) medical care.  Could they not have saved a small sum of money each year to cover this obvious likelihood?

Here’s the bottom line: Ms. Shouse chose not to pay for medical attention when such attention might well have saved her life.  If she was unwilling to pay no more than $5,000 annually to save her own life, why should the rest of us be forced to pay for what she, obviously, judged not to be a worthwhile expense for her herself to incur?

Comments    Share Share    Print Print    Email Email

  • RM3 Frisker FTN
    Please FIX the mangled double-run-on link that either Cafe Hayek or Andrew Garland provided.

    The CORRECT link is "http://justoneminute.typepad.com/main/2010/02/eulogy-to-the-unknown-campaign-volunteer.html"

    The INCORRECT link is "http://justoneminute.typepad.com/main/2010/02/eulogy-to-the-unknown-campaign-volunteer.htmlhttp://justoneminute.typepad.com/main/2010/02/eulogy-to-the-unknown-campaign-volunteer.html"
  • dwightrlee
    Given our instinctive morality, we respond emotionally to sad stories about identifiable individuals and those stories make us sympathetic to proposals that will affect the lives of millions in unintended and often unfortunate way. Stalin surely found comfort from this human impulse when he said, "one death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic."
  • Don Boudreaux
    Right you are, Dwight.
  • Yes many people do believe they benefit more from government than it costs them. This is due in no small part to fact that much of the cost is unseen by most people.

    Progressive taxation provides the illusion that "the wealthy" pay for benefits that others enjoy.

    But this is impossible, the "wealthy" do not have actual resources that the government redistributes to the rest of us. The resources have to be created by the rest of us.

    Tthe reality is that the cost of government must always be borne by those that labor to create value.

    People will soon learn the cost.

    I've had my own periods in life of being unable to afford insurance, and I have a genetically based medical condition that requires monitoring and not infrequent treatment, including surgery.

    My nephew is hearing disabled, had a job, and lost it due to involvement with drugs. He neglected his oral health and is likely to lose teeth. This can also affect his cardiac health.
    Do you want to help pay for his treatment?

    I've helped him out, but I'm not willing to relieve him entirely of the consequences of his choices.

    Many thousands of people die ever day from various causes. Lots of people die because they neglected to seek medical care soon enough.

    Over 100,000 people die each year from medical errors and hospital acquired infections.

    Don's crime here is that he failed to express sufficient sympathy for this woman. I think he went in the wrong direction in using this example.

    The question for us: is our natural sympathy for those in need sufficient justification for increasing the amount of extortion in our society.

    To use a more personal example: a mugger holds up someone because he needs money to get medicine for his sick kid. He he to be excused for his crime because of his need?

    This is what it's all about. We know how government pays for the perceived benefits it provides. It is the ultimate monopoly service and you pay what it decides you pay and does not really have to perform in the end, as it has not contracted with you in the first place.

    _____________________

    It is a heinous crime to "feelers" to appear unsympathetic, but if you go read Radley Balko at "theagitator.com", you can find a long list of innocent people killed directly at the hand of state agents because of the war on drugs.

    Will Obama speak out these names and these crimes to elicit an emotional aversion to the war on drugs.

    Where is the sympathy of the "feelers" in this case?


    Emotionalism is not a sound basis for developing policy. Nonetheless, that's how it's done and it will prove our undoing.

    Our standard of living will decline, including the availability and affordability of health care and there's nothing "the government" can do about it, for that is the agency that is taking us there.
  • ldhendrix
    Apparently most of you missed my story in all the barrage of point/counter-point. It is still there buried among all the exchanges. The point is that twelve years ago, there WAS help for the uninsured and I believe there still is.

    If there is any area of "bipartisanship" in this deluge of Keynesian/Smithsonian polarization, then surely it must be the question of what has government done that has increased the cost of health care in the first place and take steps to repeal/rectify those situations. If a real problem persists, then feel free to return to the present state of pandemonium in the public discourse.
  • Babinich
    My prayers are with this woman.

    "She would not have had to pay that much going to the doctor to get this checked out. Her initial visit would have been less than $150. There was never a question of paying for the treatment beyond the deductible."

    I am with Matt; why would her initial visit to her medical care provider be so cost prohibitive?

    What I find despicable is that POTUS would use this for political gain.

    Not surprisingly he again misstated the facts.
  • Gil
    She was an entrepreneur therefore she was destined to die young.
  • true_liberal
    And besides, it was George Bush's fault.
  • jimmilt
    Until that patient is your wife, mother daughter, etc.
  • Noah Yetter
    While this post certainly will not earn you any popularity points, it needed to be said.
  • Don Boudreaux
    Thanks Noah.
  • matt
    "In any other developed country of civilized people this women NEVER would have had to chose between her entrepreneurism[sic] and her health."
    She would not have had to pay that much going to the doctor to get this checked out. Her initial visit would have been less than $150. There was never a question of paying for the treatment beyond the deductible.

    The real choice here is that you are asking me to give up is whether to subsidize people's choices of financially risky or unproductive lifestyles. If she sought investment in her meat on stick business, the investor would have to decide whether it was a good business plan. Instead, I just asked to pay for whatever, even if it is supporting someone quitting their job to play poker online or daytrade.

    It is sad that she was eventually given Avastin, at the cost to you and I beyond her deductible, even though it doesn't seem to work very well at all. If everyone had the kind of health insurance she did, prices would be lower. I suppose you support paying for whatever treatment a doctor and a pharma dream up, regardless of the cost for an additional month of life. On the other hand, I would feel bad about asking you for money to extend my life. I would want you to do what makes you happy.

    I kind of agree with one extension of your point, which is that many people are often too deluded to manage their own health care budget. If she had worked to set aside part of the deductible amount in a health savings account, she could have taken care of herself. It's a hard problem without easy answers. I almost see some merit in ensuring that people have such accounts, like Singapore.
  • muirgeo
    " It's a hard problem without easy answers. "


    I don't think its hard.. Just take $50 billion from the military budget and set up a universal health care system... Medicare for all people like to make it hard. Every other country covers all their people and it works fine.
  • true_liberal
    So how many Americans will you place at risk from our enemies by removing $50B from the defense budget?
  • MichaelSmith
    In the first place, total private (non-Medicare, non-Medicaid, non-SCHIP) healthcare spending in the U.S. for 2008 was approximately $1.2 trillion dollars. What makes you think the government can provide the healthcare provided by those funds with just $50 billion?

    In the second place, what do you mean by "it works fine"? In Canada, for instance, healthcare is rationed by steadily increasing wait times to see specialists and get treatment. From a study by the Fraser Institute:

    News reports from across the country this week highlighted the plight of thousands of Canadians lining up and waiting for H1N1vaccinations while politicians of all stripes cast about for someone to take the blame.

    Meanwhile, wait times for medically necessary health services across Canada continue to remain unnecessarily high, but you’ll find few politicians willing to discuss this issue in a realistic manner.

    The Fraser Institute’s annual survey of hospital waiting lists released last week showed that total wait time in 2009 is still 73 per cent longer than it was back in 1993, despite the fact that health spending per person has increased by 41 per cent since then. Simply put, the public health care system is still failing Canadians.

    That Canadians are required to endure a median wait time of 16.1 weeks from GP referral to treatment by a specialist in the developed world’s second most expensive universal access health care program should be considered unacceptable. So should the fact that wait times remain historically high in spite of substantial increases in health spending across Canada over time.

    This second point is critical in understanding why the small reduction in wait times in 2009 compared to 2008 is not something to celebrate. Looked at another way, the 113 day total median wait time from GP to treatment in 2009 is the same as it was back in 2000-01, despite the fact that provincial health expenditures per Canadian have increased 29 per cent over that period, after adjusting for inflation. Canadians, through their tax dollars, are spending more than ever on health care and yet are experiencing wait times that are just as long as they were at the start of the decade, an outcome that is hardly a sign of success.

    Link: http://www.fraserinstitute.org/newsandevents/co...

    In the third place -- and this trumps all other arguments -- forcing one man to pay another man's doctor bills is no more justified than forcing one man to pick another man's cotton. Simply put, nothing on earth justifies the notion that some individuals are entitled to free (or reduced cost) goods and services paid for by confiscating a portion of the fruits of another man's labor. There is no justification for any amount of involuntary servitude, in any form whatsoever.

    The desire for "universal healthcare" is nothing but a desire for the unearned and the undeserved, to be made possible by the injustice of transferring wealth out of the pockets of those who produced and earned it and into the pockets of those who did neither. It's every bit as unjust and immoral as any other robbery, no matter how "noble" may be the cause for which you plan to spend the proceeds.
  • brotio
    Your reply, excellent as it is, supposes that Yasafi knows that a trillion is more than a billion.
  • $50 billion doesn't begin to scratch the surface, moron. And Medicare is broke.

    So, either 1) you are completely willfully ignorant of the costs involved, or 2) you are being intentionally deceptive in throwing out that bogus number.

    Either possibility is a very negative reflection on someone of your purported profession, again which I do not believe you are.
  • Gil
    It's a wonder no one has chimed in with "in any undeveloped country, a women would have not been allowed to have medical treatment or become an entrepreneur".
  • muirgeo
    ".... why should the rest of us be forced to pay for what she,..."

    A little food for thought. I bet if anything Ms Shouse a taxpaying citizen WAS paying for YOUR subsidized corporate health plan. But you paid nothing for hers as she likely had a plan uncovered by a group discount not afforded to small businesses or individuals. So the real question is why did you force her to pay for your corporate health plan. Why do you think you have the right to force her using men with guns to pay for whole families medical expenses?
  • MichaelSmith
    muirgeo wrote:

    I bet if anything Ms Shouse a taxpaying citizen WAS paying for YOUR subsidized corporate health plan. But you paid nothing for hers .... So the real question is why did you force her to pay for your corporate health plan.

    Your argument is utterly ridiculous.

    A man who does NOT get robbed, and thus keeps his money, is not being “subsidized” or “funded” by those who DO get robbed and thus lose a portion of their money. The stolen money does not flow into the pocket of the non-victim -- it flows into the pocket of the party that IS being “funded“ in this case: the thief.

    Likewise, a man or a business that does NOT have to pay taxes on the money it spends for a healthcare plan is not being “subsidized” or “funded” by those who DO have to pay taxes on their plan. The stolen money -- the taxes -- does not flow into the pocket of the non-victimized, non-taxed party -- it flows into the pocket of the party that IS being “funded“ in this case: the thief, i.e. the government.

    But as ridiculous as it is to claim that the non-victimized party is the party being “funded” by the theft -- when, in fact the proceeds go to the robber -- it is especially vicious to claim that it is the non-victimized party that is using force to pull off the robbery. Just as the non-victimized man plays no part in the robber’s use of force against his victims, the non-taxed person or business plays no part in the government’s theft of the taxed party’s funds.

    In your twisted view of things, the person or entity who is using force gets no blame for it while the innocent man who avoids being victimized gets tagged as a looter collecting another man's property. That’s a monstrous rationalization even for you.

    And please -- while we are on the subject -- spare me the "public roads" argument. A robbery is a crime, no matter what is done with the proceeds. If the proceeds are used to build roads, this changes nothing. As a practical matter, everyone is forced to use public roads -- the government’s effective monopoly on road building insures there won’t be any private alternatives. The only way to avoid the use of public roads is to quit one’s job, stay at home and starve -- in my book, that doesn’t qualify as a “choice”.

    Thus, it is ludicrous to claim that every use of public roads is an endorsement of taxation and “social projects“. The use of public roads is only an endorsement of staying alive.
  • Outstanding response, sir. I was going to write something similar, but your far superior statement saved me time and effort.

    It's a far too outrageous (and stupid) accusation to leave unanswered, and the refutation requires exceptionally clear thinking. Very well said.
  • MichaelSmith
    Thank you, sir, for the kind words.
  • Aaron
    "But you paid nothing for hers as she likely had a plan uncovered by a group discount not afforded to small businesses or individuals."

    You mean she likely had an individual plan, which is more expensive because it's not tax deductible? It's my understanding that most libertarians would like to see this tax inequality eliminated, and many advocate the elimination of employer provided plans altogether.

    Do you understand your audience, or are you just arguing for the sake of it?
  • muirgeo
    I agree with normalizing the deduction or getting rid of it. I, again, was making the point that if anything this lady was subsidizing Don's health care and not the other way around.

    It's a little like the people who have public health care coverage who are against health care plan and big government.
  • LowcountryJoe
    Subsidized how? You mean that the company charged a little more for each of its products to cover their burden-of-labor costs? And if that's the case do you mean she was forced to do business with the company? You mean the government agents strong-armed her, against her will, and forced her to be a consumer of said products?

    YASAFI!
  • muirgeo
    Corporate plans our written off as business expenses essentially funded by taxpayers who pay taxes on their small business or individual plans.
  • LowcountryJoe
    Oh, so NOW you're opposed to government subsidies used for the purposes to get more people insured for their healthcare. Can you pick a stance and stick to it, Ducktor?
  • muirgeo
    No... just making a point that Don complains he should be paying for her health care when in fact she was paying for his.
  • Stephan
    "Can you pick a stance and stick to it, Ducktor?" What is the purpose of debate if everybody picks a stance and then sticks to it no matter what?
  • LowcountryJoe
    I can see how remaining principled could be problematic for good little Bolsheviks. Sorry about that. In the future I will do my best to avoid holding people of your ideological mindset to the same standards you expect from someone with ours.
  • muirgeo
    So I ask you... back in 1905 would you have been a Bolshevik or a supporter of Tzarist Autocracy?
  • Stephan
    LowCountryJoe asked me for a favor. No problem on that. Are you here to debate and willing to change your stance given the right argument from the other side? From my Bolshevik point of view I think so. But can you confirm my impression?
  • LowcountryJoe
    Some 14 hours after your response-seeking post from muirgeo, he decided to post on a newer thread while leaving the question unanswered. I've read the guy's post for three years now. He's really not here to debate anything. He just flys in and craps all over anything and everything. The only things that he will tend to stick around for is a topic on health care or environmentism; that is, until the questions posed of him get too difficult...that's when he ducks out.
  • LowcountryJoe
    And you presume that those would be my only two options?
  • Stephan
    ;-) Context matters. To come up with "Bolshevik" in the context of this blog does not worry me a bit. I mean for you guys everyone is Bolshevik who dares to think that goverment might not be evil under particular circumstances.

    That said my question is still not answered. You always enter a debate determined not to change your stance because of some principles? No matter what argument is brought forward? If so why debate in the first place? Why listen to -arguments from already a priori determined Bolsheviks?
  • LowcountryJoe
    No, my mind can be changed. And when it is, I can admit to it. If I hold two competing opinions, I will usually adopt just one and scap the other. But I do do my best to remain consistant. I enjoy pointing out the inconsistancies of those who hold different opinions to see if they'll change their minds. It rarely happens, though. Can you see where muirgeo holds conflicting opinions above? You might not be able to but I do have the benfit of having read many inconsistent views of his. I've also seen him duck out on so many questions that call his inconsistancies out. Ask him if he's really here to debate. Do that, would you?
  • Stephan
    No problem.
  • I understand the emotional appeal of your position.

    There is no guarantee that had she no concerns about affording health coverage, that she would have taken her concern up with a medical professional early enough to save her. Even wealthy people succumb to illnesses.

    I new a man who own several large apartment buildings in San Francisco and lived, himself, in a mansion overlooking the bay.
    He got a cut on his hand, and assuming he would be alright, he died from a staph infection because he didn't get treatment early enough.
    A similar situation ended the life of Jim Henson.
  • I can understand the temptation to score moral points against your foe, but that's a dangerous strategy. For the moral argument is a ticit admission that you don't have an economic one.

    If the policy doesn't work, the morality of if isn't an issue. So, by making an issue of it, you imply that the policy does work, in this case, that plunder pays, and freedom doesn't.

    It's alright to score your moral points, but not at the expense of economics. Not making the economic case against the redistributionist policy concedes the economic case for it.

    Take whatever satisfaction you can from morality, but don't forget what matters most, economics, and the first law of it.

    For every action against the market, there is an opposite and more than equal reaction.

    That's why taking from the rich to give to the poor cannot reduce but only increase inequality, and social injustice, by the redistributionist's own standards.

    That is the strongest possible argument, moral as well as economic, that you can make against him, and, by failing to do so, lay down for him.
  • We're missing the point. Prof. Boudreaux' point seems to be that the woman could have afforded the care she needed. But suppose she really couldn't have. Certainly there are people who can't. Then what?

    Socialized mediciine?

    Redistribution?

    No, because they just make things worse for their intended beneficiaries. This isn't about morality. It's about economics. The policies just don't work. They make things worse. For everybody, rich and poor alike, with the exception of the politicians themselves.
  • Curious
    Yes!
  • davesmith001
    The error I see by those who are upset at Don is that they beleive that, under some type of socialized medicine (other than what we have already) everyone would get all the medical care necessary. While reasonable people can debate the relative strengths and weaknesses of various systems, one cannot claim that under single payer systems, everything is perfect and no one dies as a result of lack of treatment or cracks in the system.
  • carpeweb
    Disagreeing with Don or anyone else does not imply that I'm upset with him, with you or with anyone else. I do like your point about comparing relative strengths and weaknesses. How many people in this discussion do you think would do so with any sort of intellectual objectivity?

    To put that question differently, how far have you seen any such debates go before they degenerate into name calling? (No, I'm definitely not accusing you of any such behavior, but we see it in just about every debate, don't we?)
  • LowcountryJoe
    (other than what we have already)


    A point that should be emphasized considering that nearly half of all health care costs in the U.S. are realized through public spending at the federal and state governments.
  • rebuzz
    Harsh. True.
  • naiheadtom
    From “The Dregs of Life”, Royal Charles, Antonia Fraser

    The responsibility for making the first decision about treatment fell upon Bruce, the senior gentleman present. By this time one of the doctors, Sir Edmund King, had arrived in the bed-chamber and had witnessed the incident. Bleeding was the obvious remedy of the time. And bleed the King this doctor now proceeded to do in style, while a panic-stricken message was sent off to the Duke of York and the rest of the Privy Council were summoned as hastily as possible. By the time a Privy Council of sorts had gathered together in the outer room at midday, Charles had had sixteen ounces of blood removed via a vein in his arm, a task for which the doctor was afterwards paid L1,000.

    Soon other doctors came flocking in as the news of the King’s collapse reached them. A series of remedies were frantically applied. The King’s head was shorn. Cantharides (Spanish fly or blister beetle) was used as a blistering agent. A further eight ounces of blood was removed. And as a result of these steps-or despite them-the King did actually recover. Two hours later his speech had come back.

    __________________

    In the general relief, the doctors at least did not let up on the application of their remedies. It was actually in the presence of his physicians - twelve of them by this time - that next morning, Tuesday, 3 February, the King was seized with another ‘fit’ or convulsion. Immediately and with renewed frenzy the remedies were stepped up and new ones were imported.

    Lord Macaulay described Charles II on his death-bed as being tortured like an Indian at the stake. The comparison is apt, except that one doubts whether any tormentor of Indians ever had quite such a battery of instruments at his command as the seventeenth-century royal doctors. It has been estimated that a total of fifty-eight drugs were administered over five days, many of whose names are as exotic to us as their effects were painful to the King.

    There was hellebore root (a sneezing powder to clear his nose) and plasters of combined spurge and Burgundy pitch (these were applied to his feet), as well as plasters of cantharides on his head. The ingredients of the enemas which were applied frequently were rock salt and syrup of buckthorn. As an emetic, an orange infusion of metals, made in white wine, was employed. White vitriol was dissolved in paeony water; other remedies varied from the homely, such as the distillation of cowslip flowers to the more striking spirit of sal ammoniac. An anti-spasmodic julep of black cherry water, oriental bezoar stone from the stomach of an East goat and spirits of human skull were amongst other cures named.

    The poor King’s body was purged and bled and cauterized and clystered and blistered. Red hot irons were put to his shaven skull and his naked feet. His urine became scalding through the lavish use of cantharides. Cupping-glasses and all the many weird resources of medicine at the time were applied. They all had one thing in common: they were extremely painful to the patient.

    These prodigious efforts were much admired at the time. Colonel Thomas Fairfax, an Irish officer visiting London, hastened to write to Dublin of the employment of 'all the means that the art of man thought proper for the King’s distemper’. The doctor’s report afterwards spoke of 'every kind of treatment attempted by Physicians of the greatest loyalty and skill’. The doctors did not exaggerate the universality of their treatments; their loyalty was doubtless incomparable; but they did somewhat gloss over their own incompetence. The King’s mouth and tongue became 'much inflamed’ with scalding medicines and where his teeth had been forced apart during convulsions. Not all the doctors were as skilled at blooding as Edmund King. James Pearse, Charles’ Surgeon in Ordinary, and Surgeon General to the Navy and Land forces, could not find the jugular vein successfully, a desperate experience for the patient. Another doctor, Thomas Hobbs, who lived in nearby Fleet Street and Surgeon to the Household and the King’s troops of the Horse Guards, had to finish the job: for this efficiency he was later rewarded by inclusion in Dryden’s poem on the King’s death, 'Threnodia Augustalis’.

    The need to keep up the patient’s strength through all this was however fully recognized: from time to time the King was given draughts of emulsion, light broth and liquid posset. At the same time the purges and emetics continued remorselessly to drain his resistance from him. Once again the comparison with torture arises, as when the tormentors are determined that their victim shall not finally elude them through death, and therefore fortify him.

    _______________

    This is a frightening and disgusting account of the very best that 17th century Western medicine had to offer and, as such, makes us profoundly grateful for the advances in medicine that we enjoy now. And as interesting as this might be, medicine is not my point. The doctors of that era felt that they had a fairly complete knowledge of the human body and the techniques available to combat its afflictions. Compare the state of medicine then to economics now. The individuals and agencies charged with directing the national and world economies seem to have a similar grasp of their subject to that exhibited by the physicians of Stuart England. Just as blood letting was the first response to almost any physical complaint then, government spending is the answer to any economic problem today. Should some semblance of human freedom endure into the future, our descendants may well look at government activities in the economic sphere as very much like the efforts of the doctors that treated the happless Charles II in 1685.
  • Economics in One Lesson: The Lesson
    By Henry Hazlitt

    [edited excerpt] Economics is haunted by more fallacies than any subject known to man. This is no accident. The difficulties of the subject are great enough, and they are multiplied a thousandfold by the special pleadings of selfish interests.

    Every group has interests antagonistic to all other groups. Some public policies benefit everybody in the long run. Other policies benefit only one group at the expense of all other groups.

    The group that benefits by such policies has such a direct interest in them that they argue for them plausibly and persistently. The group hires the best buyable minds to present its case. It will either convince the public that its case is sound, or so befuddle the argument that clear thinking becomes next to impossible.
  • muirgeo
    That's actually a great point. All economics is ultimately political. Thus the need for a solid basis of government, politics and policy.

    The economy is all secondary to how you structure policy.
  • true_liberal
    The difference is between aspirations and achievements. Keynesian economists have wonderful goals, but little to show by way of results. The Austrian school may seem less palatable, but their advocacy of the Darwinism of competition yields better results for all.
  • carpeweb
    I wonder how many people here have actually experienced the feeling of not being able to afford to pay for health care. It's a bit too facile to say that someone else can afford $5,000 annually (especially when that's pretty obviously not the only related expense). I can tell you from bitter personal experience that paying approximately $4,000 last year has been a pretty traumatic experience. I'm just now close to paying off the last of the medical bills, but as a result of the expenses, I've now damaged my ability to get a mortgage for the next year or two. I'm sure many of you will say how little that will cost me, but consider that I won't be able to get my $8,000 "free lunch", plus the tax deduction on mortgage interest. Before someone tells me that the tax credits and deductions are a terrible incursion into liberty, help me figure out how that helps me in the least bit, when so many people with means will benefit. The people harmed by these free lunches are not the wealthy; they are those without wealth. I'll bet most of the readers and commentators on this blog take advantage of these sorts of tax breaks all the time, even while railing against them and crying all the way to the bank.

    Just for clarification, let me say that I am not a supporter of so-called health care reform -- at least not of any of the proposals I've seen. Personally, it looks like I may be penalized for not having a full-time job. The notion that my health care or health insurance should depend in any way on my employment is both ridiculous and unfair.

    Lastly, Durkheim had a fair point about the equal burdens of the rich and poor (and I'm neither). I'm too lazy to find it.
  • johndewey
    Hey, life is hard. For all of us. Choices are often tough. For me, paying for health care for my family has always been one of my top priorities - right up there with minimal food for survival and basic shelter. I am positive that paying for those basic necessities for life is not as high for millions of my fellow Americans. That's because they know someone else will be forced to take care of them. That's the ugly reality of modern socialism.
  • carpeweb
    Couldn't a fair number of those "millions" have a legitimate claim that they have paid for insurance and therefore have prioritized health care, only to find that they didn't actually get what they believed they had bought?

    I understand the problems with the "free lunch" mentality, but we can't ignore that we're not starting from scratch, and millions of families have paid insurance premiums and taxes for years with the understanding (false though it may have been) that these payments guaranteed certain benefits in return. Governments, of course, are not unique in creating this false impression. Underfunded pensions and take-backs by corporations exhibit the same characteristics. Are pensions and insurance elements of socialism?
  • If you have concerns about being able to afford things, consider that a lot of what government does comes out of your standard of living.

    It costs you a lot more to live because of the cost of bureaucracy, subsidies, and empire than it would without.
  • carpeweb
    Yes, of course it does. The principle of limited government makes great sense, and I wasn't arguing against it, although I wasn't arguing for it, either. The argument for limited government is simply not the same as the argument that everyone can afford health care. Yes, I know, that's not what Don Boudreaux argued. But he did make a rather arbitrary judgment of another person's ability to pay. Maybe he's right, but an argument predicated on "maybe he's right" isn't a very solid argument, is it? It seems pretty clear to me that he isn't "definitely" right. In fact, he already apologized for mistaken assumptions in his first salvo on this issue. I find that honesty refreshing, but it doesn't seem to dawn on anyone that these issues don't lend themselves to the certainty with which nearly all the commentators seem endowed.
  • I feel the need to make the point though because it is one that is almost universally overlooked by those pleading for an increase in government.

    The cost of extensive government makes people more dependent on government AND makes them worse off than they otherwise would be.
  • carpeweb
    More assumptions:

    At what point did I plead for *any* government, much less for *any* *increase* in government? I was disputing an assumption and whether people here really understand what it feels like when one feels one cannot afford health care. I used my own example precisely because I very much felt that way (and still sometimes do feel that way), even though I technically could afford it -- and did pay for it, at great cost to myself in terms of other things I sacrificed. It was a response to Don Boudreaux, and if you read his post, I believe my objection is valid. This doesn't invalidate his point of view, but I would hope it could temper it. Instead of considering that objective, you've set out to prove that I'm incorrect.

    Extensive government clearly makes you worse off than you otherwise would be. Since extensive government also includes benefits, you're again making value judgments for others when you claim it makes everyone worse off. I agree that expansion by itself does retard economic growth. But, some people think they are better off. Actually, lots and lots of people think they are better off -- enough of them to carry a clear majority in our political system since its existence. Do you think they are all simply too stupid to realize they would be better off by making the choices you want them to make?

    Having said this, I am still not "pleading for an increase in government". I don't like a lot of things we have government do, but I don't argue that the people that do like them are stupid or simply not enlightened enough to see that my preferences are better for them than their preferences.
  • I wasn't accusing you of pleading for more government. My comment was intended as explanation for my earlier post and is about those that DO plead for more government.

    More people read this blog than actually post, you know, an audience.

    I was not intending any personal criticism.

    I will post further in an independent post.
  • carpeweb
    Fair enough!
  • vidyohs
    Before I dip too deeply into your pond of woe, I'd have to know many things about you.

    How old are you?
    What is your educational track record?
    Do you have enough experience to actually have a resume?
    When did you get married and take on added responsibilities?
    Are you married?
    Do you have children?
    What was your income level when you got married?
    What were your prospects for increasing your income when you took on those added responsibilities?
    Did anyone actually force you into education, dropping education, ignoring education, or choosing education poorly?
    What is your present field of endeavor>
    Did you choose it freely, only to find you made a bad choice?
    Just so many questions to ask before buying into your tale and accepting your recital as being exact and exempting you from self blame.
    In poker lingo, "Did you bet on the come?"
    Are you now complaining because that inside straight didn't fill?

    So much goes into where we are in life, but one thing I know, we are exactly where we want to be. Otherwise we would have made better choices.
  • carpeweb
    I related one bitter experience, not a pound of woe. I'm generally happy, and most details of my life are none of your business. Interesting that you attack me for hidden personal motives, indicating that you have none of your own.

    My present field of endeavor is trying to find a full-time job in the worst recession I've experienced. I'm not complaining; I'm working three part-time jobs.

    You seem to think other people's choices have no impact. Read Mankiw or Krugman (because this issue is not disputed by economists of any political stripe). Certainly, I could have made better choices, but I'm not lamenting them. I'm just tired of smugness, whether it comes from the left, the right or wherever the heck the libertarians are at the moment. Making a judgment that someone else should have done something is always a little bit smug, so I admit that we can't completely avoid it. I just find a lot of the justifications given here and elsewhere to be a little bit obviously self-serving.

    When did I indicate I was without blame, or any of the hundreds of assumptions you've obviously made about me?
  • vidyohs
    Hmmm, musta struck a nerve, though I reviewed my post in light of your rather startling claim that I attacked you, and I see no attack at all.

    Just a very wise post about how, until we know some of the details I listed, your tale is rhetoric, no more no less. No hidden motive at all. My post was a lazy way of saying that without knowing those details to ascertain whether it was your choices that has left you in the position you're in, or someone actually descended upon you and yours and stole everything you owned that left you in such a position; and, I certainly would not go into a voting booth with your tale as motivation to do anything, without that knowledge.

    And, trust me, I'd be shocked had you responded to each question, and I certainly did not expect one.

    And, last in reference to your close, I again reviewed my comment to you and damn'd if I can find one single assumption in it. Just straightforward hard questions, questions that I have asked myself countless times over the years, and I am as uncomfortable with having to honestly answer myself, as you seem to be in doing your own introspection.

    Good luck on your job hunt, and I mean that sincerely. For what it is worth, and it may be redundant to your own history, but even in ignorance of what your expertise is, have you looked at what you do and tried to figure out how you can convert that to being your own boss, i.e. start your own business and cut yourself loose from others' control? A start-up business can be brutal at first but if you're willing to tighten your belt, dig in and sell your services, you gain so much in freedom and self control of your life.

    I know many people in the middle of life who hit the brickwall you have and actually made a business out of a hobby or love, and found that hitting that wall was the best thing that ever happened to them.

    If you're geared to only "thinking job", it will never happen.

    Good luck.
  • carpeweb
    Yeah, you struck a nerve. OK, I apologize for misinterpreting your response.

    Here's where I assume that you made assumptions:

    "How old are you?"

    This seems to assume that I don't have enough experience to know what you know. Maybe you ask for different reasons, but I'm not sure why my age would be relevant, assuming I have any experience in life at all.

    "What is your educational track record?"

    This seems to assume that I haven't bothered to get enough education to see the truth of your argument. I'm not sure why my educational attainment would be relevant.

    "Do you have enough experience to actually have a resume?"

    Are you sure that doesn't sound like an attack?


    "When did you get married and take on added responsibilities?
    Are you married?
    Do you have children?"

    These questions imply that family status has something to do with the credibility of my argument. I don't see how that matters.

    "What was your income level when you got married?
    What were your prospects for increasing your income when you took on those added responsibilities?"

    These questions imply that my income level is somehow related to my credibility.

    "Did anyone actually force you into education, dropping education, ignoring education, or choosing education poorly?"

    If you don't think you're making assumptions, why would you word these questions as you have, instead of asking, for example, who helped me with my education or just how I chose to pursue my education? Instead, you phrased these in ways that clearly sound accusatory, as if somehow I had implied any of these possibilities in my earlier posts. If that's not why you're asking these specific questions, then that's my mistake for misinterpreting, but your wording is odd, to say the least.

    "What is your present field of endeavor>
    Did you choose it freely, only to find you made a bad choice?
    Just so many questions to ask before buying into your tale and accepting your recital as being exact and exempting you from self blame."

    Uh, I don't see how you're not making assumptions here. OK, to be fair, you're not saying I'm to blame, but you are saying that I'm somehow exempting myself from blame. I think your language is again curious, and it indicates that your motivation includes finding someone to blame. That's understandable, since so many people -- not just in this debate but in our society in general -- seem to be hell-bent on finding others to blame for their circumstances.* But, I don't think I was blaming anyone for anything. If I seemed as if I were doing so, I apologize, but I don't honestly think I was even implying blame. In fact, Don Boudreaux was blaming the cancer victim here. Maybe she is to blame. President Obama certainly seems to be casting blame in other directions, so I suppose it's inevitable to question what responsibility the victim has. But, I don't see how I was working that angle in my response.

    "In poker lingo, "Did you bet on the come?"
    Are you now complaining because that inside straight didn't fill?"

    I have to point out that betting on the come is craps lingo, sometimes used in poker. No, I'm not complaining about a risky bet that didn't pay. Let's remember, I wasn't out blogging about my woes; I was responding to Don Boudreaux blogging about someone else's woes. I used a personal example, because I can judge my situation more clearly than I can judge a stranger's situation.

    "So much goes into where we are in life, but one thing I know, we are exactly where we want to be. Otherwise we would have made better choices."

    This does not just assume but concludes that each individual alone determines his or her outcomes with a series of choices. That's nonsense. Our choices interact with the choices of others and with the larger world. We can make good choices and have bad outcomes, just as we can make bad choices and have good outcomes. Life has a lot of randomness or, if you prefer, God works in mysterious ways. However, your perspective does assume that everyone is to blame for his or her own outcomes. I wasn't seeking blame, but I happen to believe it's a lot more complicated that you portray it. I don't dodge responsibility for any of my decisions that have contributed to where I am today -- and I'm not complaining about where I am. I'm a lot better off than millions of Americans, and almost all Americans are a lot better off than billions of others. I get that.

    Having said this, I concede that it is still possible to accept the general proposition that we should still leave people to their own outcomes -- and more importantly perhaps that government can't fix all problems. Maybe we should simply leave the cancer victim who didn't pay for treatment to that fate -- and not worry about whether or not she "could afford" a different outcome. It is equally possible to accept that maybe we shouldn't, because we're a social animal, and maybe in some circumstances, government is the right vehicle (rather than private charity, for example). After all, nearly everyone seems to accept that government is the right vehicle to protect property rights. I think we'd agree that it doesn't always do this perfectly well, but that it does it better than anarchy.
  • johndewey
    casrpeweb: "It is equally possible to accept that maybe we shouldn't, because we're a social animal, and maybe in some circumstances, government is the right vehicle (rather than private charity, for example). "

    It's difficult to respond to you because you do not speak in specifics.

    If you are suggesting that government "should" pay for the health care of everyone, then my question is how would government do so? Is government going to pay for social welfare services by an arangement such as "from each according to his ability to each according to his need"? That was proven unworkable in the 20th century.

    Of course, government is already paying for the health care for many millions of Americans. For many of the rest, government is determining what must be included in the health insurance available to them. As I see it, it is exactly government solutions and restrictions which cause health care to be so expensive for all of us.
  • vidyohs
    I did read the comment I first responded to as a complaining one, yes I did. I see a lot of them like that. Kinda of like the first appearance on the Cafe by Tex, only without the finger pointing.

    You seem determined to be victimized by me.

    You and I are words on a screen to each other, therefore we can be anything, any age, any sex, any religion, or any ethnicity; you and I have no way of knowing the truth or accuracy of our words written on a screen, other than to judge them though the lens of our own knowledge and experience.

    As a total stranger, who read the comment I responded to, I had questions.

    If you go back you will note that I did not ask you those questions, I said they were questions to which I would have to have answers in order to judge the accuracy or sincerity of your post, such as would motivate me to pull a voting lever one way or the other.

    I see phonies from the looney left come here frequently and post total bullshit that I have the utmost sincere belief does not come from personal knowledge but is mere rote repetition of their professor's indoctrination, and/or the conventional wisdom of their select circle of friends.

    As you are words on a screen, I answered you as such.

    Yes other people's decisions do effect us; but, if you're convinced that those decisions have to be more than temporary and can't be overcome by your own decisions and determination, then I am sorry for you.

    Last, "betting on the come" is a betting word, it may be used in craps, I wouldn't know as I have never bothered to shoot craps, but I began playing poker as a teenager (a lot of years ago) and it was common among those I played with, people from around the USA.

    But, I did learn that if I bet on the come, I had to live with it when the cards didn't fall my way; and, I never blamed any one but myself for being in the situation.
  • robert_o
    Do you not have friends or family that can help you out? They could presumably float you a 1 year loan to carry you forward until you get your $8k deduction. Pooling $5-8k shouldn't be too much trouble for a dozen people.
  • carpeweb
    I'm not sure what to make of your assumption that friends and family could "carry" a mortgage loan for a year or two, or your math suggesting I'd need only $5-8K. What kind of mortgage do you carry? I don't travel in such circles.
  • robert_o
    You're the one who claimed you had to pay $4,000 for medical expenses, and that was the one expense that put you behind on your ability to obtain a mortgage. I didn't make it up.

    I can tell you from bitter personal experience that paying approximately $4,000 last year has been a pretty traumatic experience. [...] as a result of the expenses, I've now damaged my ability to get a mortgage for the next year or two.

    I don't have a mortgage. I rent. I don't get the freebie $8k either.
  • carpeweb
    I'm not sure what you mean. I'm not being inconsistent. $4K was a big pill to swallow last year. Getting friends to put together money for a mortgage is beyond my means.

    I never said $4K was "the one expense". It was certainly an unanticipated expense. My point was that it's simply too facile to tell others they can easily afford something, until one has been in a difficult financial spot, and I suspect that most commentators on this blog have not experienced that unpleasantness. Your assumption that I have friends and families who can loan me enough money to buy a house indicates that you and I perceive reality very differently.
  • robert_o
    In your earlier post, you made it sound like you would have had a house if not for that one unforeseen medical expense. That is, you had sufficient savings for a downpayment, and presumably sufficient income to carry the mortgage afterwards. I can only read what you write, and no more.

    |I'm just now close to paying off the last of the medical bills, but as a result of the expenses, I've now damaged my ability to get a mortgage for the next year or two.

    Surely then, the loan amount your friends you need to provide is merely the difference between the money you had at the time, and the money remaining after the medical expense. That should be no more than the approximate $4,000 bill (plus interest) you have referenced in your earlier post.

    I did not mean to imply that your friends would front you the money to purchase the entire house, or the entire downpayment.
  • carpeweb
    You make many unfounded assumptions. Obtaining a mortgage requires solid credit history, and I fell behind on my payments. I have caught up, but it will take at least a year or two to repair my credit score, even though it took less than 6 months to fall behind and less than a year to get caught up on all payments.

    To anticipate your next set of unfounded assumptions, the medical provider assured me that I could pay small monthly amounts, then started dunning me after 30 days, despite partial payments.

    I'm really tired of this conversation. It's irrelevant to my point, which is that it is too facile to judge whether others can afford things. Technically, I could afford the medical treatments. The cost was quite high. If we had a second emergency, I have no idea what we would have done, but clearly, we cut it pretty damn close to the edge. My other point was that $4,000 hardly seems like a lot in most of these discussions, which make it seem as if that sum should be relatively easy for anyone. It's not. Period.
  • robert_o
    Gee, way to miss my first reply. Oh well.

    You're right, I did make an invalid assumption: I assumed you had sufficient savings for a down payment. Thank you for clarifying that I was in error. I apologize for the mistake.
  • txslr
    I could be wrong, but I would expect that the vast majority of the people who are posting here have experienced financial difficulties. I certaintly have. Why would think otherwise?

    Furthermore, an unexpected medical expense that forces you to postpone the purchase of a house is also not exactly the same thing has being thrown out into the street.
  • I have catastrophic health insurance. Using it is a bit more complicated than presented here. Especially w.r.t. the deductible. I wrote about it here:

    http://dullgeek.blogspot.com/2010/02/to-deduct-...

    The point is that there are two points in both of the High Deductible Plans that I've had: deductible & max out of pocket. Summary of my current plan:

    Prior to meeting deductible: insurance pays 0
    After $4000 deductible met: insurance pays 80%
    After $8000 max out of pocket met: insurance pays 100%

    Additional complications come about from the games played by insurance companies and health care providers, as I mention in my blog post.

    Of course, this doesn't change the point of the post. But I thought I'd share how it works for me in practice.
  • muirgeo
    How much is your premium. Is there a maximum yearly benefit? Are you sure you have no unclaimed conditions that could lead to recision? Are you sure of what chronic conditions are covered and will they let you have whatever treatment your physician recommends?
  • In answer to your questions:

    1. My HDHP premium is about $125/mo. Compared to about $775/mo for traditional insurance. Best case scenario w/HDHP $1500 per year. Best case scenario w/traditional insurance: $9400 per year. Worst case scenario for both is roughly $9500 per year. HDHP gives me up to $8000/yr incentive to be careful about how much healthcare I consume.

    2. This insurance is a group policy. Recision is less of an issue in that situation. Although, this is one area where I'd like to see reform. You can't take people's premiums, set an expectation of coverage, and then when you're called to hold up your end of the bargain reneg. Enforcing contracts is something that many (most?) libertarians agree is a valid role for government.

    3. For the first $4000, I am 100% certain that I get any condition treated that my physician recommends. I'm paying for it. The insurance company doesn't care. After that, if they start goofing around with not paying for coverage, I refer back to point #2 re: contract enforcement.
  • MWG
    Thanks for the info.
  • Stephan
    This blog entry is simply disgusting! I've really no idea what GMU was thinking to put such an asshole in such position? And I don't understand parents who spent tons of money to get their children educated by him?
  • txslr
    How do you feel about President Obama invoking her case in an attempt to sell the public on his preferred health insurance redesign? What are the rules here? The President says that government has an obligation to expropriate our resources in order to ensure women like her have some sort of improved access to heathcare. He brings her into the debate.

    Is it impolite to respond?
  • MWG
    Actually Stephan, what's disgusting is that none of this woman's friends, family, and coworkers at the Obama campaign stepped up to the plate to help this woman out. What's even more disgusting (but I guess not surprising) is the fact that OBAMA then leverages the story for cheap political points.
  • vidyohs
    Excellent, sir.
  • MWG
    Thank you vidyohs. That means a lot.
  • carpeweb
    Well, I was going to weigh in with some comments opposed to Don Boudreaux, but I have to start with a defense.

    Disagreement with him does not make him an asshole. One of the biggest problems with our current political environment is that hardly anyone listens to or reads opinions of those with different points of view. Don Boudreax is a smart guy who clearly merits serious attention. Perhaps I read his blog entries precisely because I disagree with him.

    Perhaps the parents who spend tons of money for their children's eduction do so because Don Boudreaux at least seems to write well.

    Perhaps even a few of the children pay a significant portion of the costs.
  • Stephan
    Perhaps he's a smart guy? Probable! That doesn't exclude the option to be an asshole. Most assholes are to some extend smart guys. This is not about what and whether health-care reform should be like. This is a cynical rant just to further an ideological crusade. And this is disgusting!
  • ArrowSmith
    No you're disgusting for wanting to shut down the debate with your emotionalism.
  • Stephan
    Eventually I'm obviously not shutting down the debate by simply saying that this blog entry is disgusting. I'm fine with you continuing to ponder how comes that this woman chose her death. "She chose ..."
  • ArrowSmith
    It's people like you who disgust me the most. The ones who throw around epithets instead of debating. Bolshevik.
  • Stephan
    Bolshevik? No problem with that one ;-)
  • natealderson
    didn't see that coming
  • muirgeo
    Why because you're a Tsarist autocrat? Which side would you have been on in 1905?
  • brotio
    We know which side you'd have been on. Roosevelt thought that the Bolshevik, Stalin, was a righteous ruler.

    When it comes to mass murder, the Czars were pikers compared to the righteous rulers you admire. I'm sure that's a factor in your admiration.
  • natealderson
    There were only two sides to choose from?
  • gmuphilguy
    In case you don't know already, your first link needs a-fixin'
  • smurphy77077
    I would like you to confirm that the "total out of pocket cost" was truly all the cost she would have paid. This apparently does not consider the cost of the catastrophic insurance. I myself had this policy type, and tried to run the deductible up to $10k, without success. At $5k deductible, the cost of the policy was $12,000.00/yr. What an I missing here? Should she have maintained the policy AND the deductible, her costs would have been $17,000.00/yr. Not a small sum. What's up with the math?
  • In Missouri?

    I just ran a quote on eHealthInsurance for a single female in St. Louis and found the $5,000 deductible policies range in the $2,000 - $3,000/yr. I live in MO. I pay little less for a policy for family that has a $5,000 deductible and max out of pocket of $11k, so the eHealthInsurance quote numbers are realistic.

    But, the fact of the matter is she did have insurance so the cost of her policy is sunk.
  • davesmith
    Economists think on the margin.
  • true_liberal
    After a bit of search on the web, I found some of Ms. Shouse' Facebook posts:
    http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=94772260322

    Now I'm only speculating here, but from the tenor of her posts, she may have been indulging in alternative therapy for the cancer. I won't say any more, except that this MAY be fodder for further study of her case.
  • John
    I agree with Dr Boudreaux's point and enjoy visiting Cafe Hayek, but this post nonetheless seems a little distasteful. As they say, de mortuis nil nisi bonum.
  • Where did he speak, or write, ill of the dead?

    He pointed out several facts about the situation that showed that while she appeared to have the resources at her disposal to get medical care, she made a personal choice not to.
  • Don Boudreaux
    John: Remember, it was Barack Obama, not I, who first brought this late woman into a public-policy debate.
  • John
    I recognize as much. It really doesn't reflect well on the President that he did it. But a good debater needs not to answer every erroneous point his opponent makes. This seems one better ignored.
  • johndewey
    I respect your opinion, but I disagree. Obama and the Democrats do influence public opinion with their emotional appeals. They need to be challenged on this and every other instance, IMO.
  • Curious
    This is a perfect case to justify tax cuts.

    Tax cuts will mean more money in people's pockets for those out of pocket medical expenses.
  • muirgeo
    Reagan cut taxes, Bush cut taxes twice... she's still dead. So I guess your logic is cutting taxes more would be even better?
  • brotio
    Tax rates were cut.

    I'd tell you to learn the difference, but what would be the point?
  • theorlonater
    The Reagan tax cuts weren't that much.
  • But they didn't cut spending, which is what really matters.
  • Curious
    "...your logic is cutting taxes more would be even better?"

    Precisely.
  • vidyohs
    Yep, and stupid people still run out and spend that extra money on IPODS, flat panel mega sized TVs, cruises, upgrade their ride, or even take time away from productive work to volunteer to get a candidate elected whose only qualification is skin color.

    Which puts her careless (and possibly stupid) self right in the middle of America doesn't it? Right there next to doctors from California.

    It is always good advice that when one shoots one's self in the foot, that there be iodine and bandages close at hand so that you can take at least some rudimentary responsibility for yourself.
  • true_liberal
    My gosh. People make stupid decisions all the time. Simply because the Feds require every state to have mandatory seatbelt laws DOES NOT STOP the stupidity of people who refuse to wear them. One can even question the wisdom of extreme skiers and skateboarders and motorcyclists and skydivers; Law or no law, federal mandate or no, people make risky and poor choices.

    How is Ms. Shouse any different?
  • muirgeo
    Wow!!! How incredibly shrewd and callous. I'm quite saddened by the tone and presumptions made in this post.

    In any other developed country of civilized people this women NEVER would have had to chose between her entrepreneurism and her health. This scenario plays out over and over. Now instead of a living business and the entrepreneur who started it we have neither... but some CEO's have a little more ... because apparently some people think that's the way things should be even if theirs is by far the minority belief. I really wonder what they mean when they speak of civilized man.

    Terribly callous Don. Very sad and pathetic. But you ARE right. People like you should not be bothered to pay for others health care insurance... People like you however should be bothered to find a country where the majority of people believe like you. Most people here in the democratic country are all for a public health plan and we see it a cooperative enterprise establishing a right to health. We shouldn't be held hostage to profiteers and ideologues of the minority view.
  • whoisjohngaltcom
    muirgeo: "In any other developed country of civilized people this women NEVER would have had to chose between her entrepreneurism and her health."
    Incorrect. In any other developed country, blah blah blah, she wouldn't be allowed to choose. That's completely different from "having to choose."
  • MWG
    "We shouldn't be held hostage to profiteers..."

    ...said the man who profits as a doctor...
  • How else could he afford regular trips to the wilderness to get away from the "rabble".
  • slocum
    "In any other developed country of civilized people this women NEVER would have had to chose between her entrepreneurism and her health."

    That's just bizarre. We expect people to spend $5000 (and much more) for higher education for themselves, we expect people to spend many times that to pay for their own housing and transportation -- and that's perfectly normal. But somehow it's completely inhumane to expect people to spend ANY amount of their own money on their own health? Why?
  • Randy
    "Most people here in the democratic country are all for a public health plan and we see it a cooperative enterprise establishing a right to health. We shouldn't be held hostage to profiteers and ideologues of the minority view."

    No one is holding you hostage. No one is keeping you from just forming a cooperative. No one, of course, but your own ideology - that we should pay for what you want. I can see no other logical conclusion than that what you really want is to exploit us. Well, we don't want to be exploited. So piss off. How's that for callous?
  • MichaelSmith
    Most people here in the democratic country are all for a public health plan and we see it a cooperative enterprise establishing a right to health. We shouldn't be held hostage to profiteers and ideologues of the minority view.

    Oh, I see. In your view, if a lynch mob is big enough (if it is a majority), the lynching becomes a "cooperative enterprise” establishing a right to lynch -- and if the person you are proposing to lynch objects to this “enterprise”, it is HE that is initiating force by holding the lynch mob “hostage” to his minority view that he has a right not to be murdered.
  • David
    When you say that in other developed countries this woman would not have to have chosen between health and entrepreneurship, do you really mean/believe that? How can we "not have to choose" between two resource-consuming things? Resources are either devoted to one thing or another. Resources are simply not infinite. The whole idea that someone "doesn't have to choose" between things they want, because they can have them both simultaneously with no tradeoffs, is a falsehood, and you're not going to convince very many economists with arguments such as that. The tradeoff always exists. It could be hidden, but it is there. Always.
  • muirgeo
    Come on David. Every time you run to the grocery store are you deciding to support the public roads over possibly using the money for some other better resource. The roads are there, you use them with out a thought and you get your milk no problem. Society is benefitted for its investment.

    We simply are saying that society benefit when it pools its resources to provide health care to people so they can pursue other endeavors unrestrained.

    Again every other country does so for less. So it is NOT an increased cost. It is a savings AND it spurs entrepreneurs who will now start up a new business unencumbered with the needs of providing themselves or their employees health care insurance.


    It's very frustrating to see $700 billion squandered away every year on the military, hundreds of billions more paid to non productive parasitic CEO's and Wall Street. And 400 wealthy Americans"worth" $1.5 trillion who could themselves alone fund this while still remaining multi-billionaires. It's ridiculously irrational.
  • theorlonater
    I would rather of had the road managed by the neighborhood association rather than the City. Besides, the cities and towns were built and helped developed by entrepreneurs, roads included. Secondly, employers offer health insurance because of a tax-code distortion. Thirdly, stop foolishly saying that every other country does so for "less." You have to look at other factors too such as the number of hospital beds, number of medical care equipment per so many people, what deficits are run(and they are), access to new drugs, what the national health insurance pays for certain drugs, etc.
    Stop simplifying things to some Utopian dreamland.
  • Muirgeo said [edited]:
    "Again every other country provides health care for less."

    Here is Britian's approach to saving money on health care: Do it yourself.

    Bed shortage forces 4,000 mothers to give birth in lifts, offices, and hospital toilets

    It is a myth that US healthcare is more expensive AND delivers less. The WHO ranks US healthcare lower BECAUSE it costs more, then this statistic is picked up to "show" that the extra cost hasn't earned a high rank.
  • vidyohs
    Couple of things, sir. First, the WHO is a U.N. organization and has no reason to show the USA as being first in anything, we Americans are just too uppity in our dismissal of the U.N. apparatus.

    I sat at my table and listened to my dedicated socialist friends rail against the US health care as being the 26th worst in the world. 26th worst, mind you. I expressed my sincere doubt at this statistic as I am in the med center constantly doing depositions. I see the excellent facilities, clean, hi-tech, staffed by good people; many if not all the hospitals and facilities are not only there to serve people but are also teaching institutions attended by the brightest and best from around the world. For God's sake, when DeBakey developed his understanding and techniques in South Africa, he did not go to Cuba, the USSR, China, England, France, Singapore, or any other place, he came here to Houston where we have unequaled institutions.

    Anyway, I checked their obviously bogus claim on google, and all I could come up with was that in international rankings the USA was 26th in health care "delivery", nebulous concept as that is. The statistical difference were not impressively huge, and none of the nations ranked above us in this category could even come close to supporting, with adequate health care, the influx of illegal or destitute immigrants we do.

    Socialists are suspect on everything they say, even my friends....pity that.

    The female side of the pair, a couple of years ago had double knee replacement surgery. They had managed, with the help of their successful capitalist son, to obtain insurance that covered this operation. But, it didn't cover rehabilitation therapy and care. We visited her in a rehab and therapy center in Sugarland, Tex, where in the course of our visit, I asked the male side of the pair, who was paying for the expenses of a private room and the rehab treatments. He said to me, "I don't know and I don't care." (Turns out it was medicade or medicare - public money)

    His answer though is instructive insight into the socialist mind. Every time I talk to him about politics I remember that. As much fun as conversation with them can be at times, if it weren't for my wife I could never see them again and not miss them.
  • MWG
    "We simply are saying that society benefit when it pools its resources to provide health care to people so they can pursue other endeavors unrestrained."

    Actually in the case of this woman, that may not be true as cancer survival rates are higher in the US than in countries you love so much for their healthcare.

    Most Cancer Survival Rates in USA Better Than Europe and Canada
    http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/secondhandsmok...

    Cancer Survival Rates Improving Across Europe, But Still Lagging Behind United States
    http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/561737

    Britain, the sick man of Europe:
    Heart and cancer survival rates among worst in developed world
    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1234276...
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1234276...
  • MWG
    "It's very frustrating to see $700 billion squandered away every year on the military, hundreds of billions more paid to non productive parasitic CEO's and Wall Street. And 400 wealthy Americans"worth" $1.5 trillion who could themselves alone fund this while still remaining multi-billionaires. It's ridiculously irrational."

    I thought we were ALL going to fund it. Remember what YOU said?

    "I so sick of this pathetic meme. As if only some people pay for it and others don't."
  • David
    What part of this comment is relevant to any sort of refutation of what I said? You seem to be arguing past me (and assuming I have taken positions which appear nowhere in my comment). I agree with many of the things you just wrote. I just don't believe that the government can provide services with resources from thin air, thus negating any "choices" that people have to make. It socializes the choice and removes decision-making power from the individual, but the choices are still there.

    I'm really not interested in debating whether or not government-run health care would be cost effective on this post. There are far too many variables and too much wiggle room to make any blanket pronouncements on the matter of cost without first setting up a large amount of framework within which we can have that discussion.
  • johndewey
    I'm not sure how long you have been posting here, David. I do know that it is a waste of time to argue with muirgeo. Further, arguing with muirgeo only clutters this formerly useful blog and makes it difficult for everyone else to engage in useful discussion. That's probably what muirgeo intends. My reuest to you is to ignore him.
  • Curious
    "Now instead of a living business and the entrepreneur who started it we have neither..."

    Don doesn't dispute that, he only states that it was her choice.

    "...find a country where the majority of people believe like you."

    Judging by what happened at the townhall meetings last year, that country is USA.
  • MWG
    Muir, who's MORE "callous"? Don for questioning the details of a story being used as a pretense to expropriate the wealth of complete strangers for the benefit of other complete strangers, or those who worked for the millionaire Obama who didn't bring the story to his attention so he and others at the campaign could have pooled a measly (yes, measly when divided up amongst Obama and his campaign workers) $5k to help cover the costs of her medical expenses?

    Don callous? Maybe... Obama and his minions? Absolutely!
  • muirgeo
    "....expropriate the wealth of complete strangers for the benefit of other complete strangers,..."



    I so sick of this pathetic meme. As if only some people pay for it and others don't. Only poor libertarians pay all the taxes and they never use the services. Ahhh SHAADDD UP!
  • brotio
    As if only some people pay for it and others don't. - Yasafi Muirduck

    Pizzas Crust, Yasafi!

    Your entire false-outrage over this has been based on the assertion that some people can't afford health insurance, so others should be forced to pick up their tab. That means, some people pay for it, and others don't.

    I know that God wasn't kind to you when brains were being handed out, but that was dumb, even for you.

    Oh, and drop the charade about caring whether persons have health insurance or not. You've made it plain that their lives are expendable if a righteous ruler deems it necessary that they starve.
  • theorlonater
    Why does there need to be a monopoly provider of your so called "services?"
  • Is your logic here that since libertarians believe that these things shouldn't be publicly funded, that invalidates libertarian use of those services once they are publicly funded? So for example, libertarians who believe that roads should be privatized - yet continue to use public roads - are in the wrong?

    I would think that the logic follows that if the government is going to expropriate taxes anyway, that the libertarians (along with every other tax payer) has already paid for the public service, and hence get to use it, even if they'd prefer that it didn't work that way.
  • MichaelSmith
    You are evidently laboring under the illusion that everyone pays an equal amount in taxes and therefore has some sort of imaginary equal right to all the things on which those taxes are spent.

    Here are some facts from the real world: For 2009, the top 1% of the wage earners in this country paid 40.2% of all income taxes. The top 50% of wage earners paid 97.11% of all taxes. The bottom 50% of the wage earners paid 2.89%. The bottom 25% are paying virtually nothing.

    Now, I realize that you don't exist in the real world, but here in reality, taxes are indeed being collected from millions of individuals to pay for benefits to other millions of individuals that are paying little to nothing. It is a massive transfer of wealth from those who earned it and deserve it to those who did not earn it and do not deserve it -- it is, in short, a massive injustice.
  • MWG
    Interesting interpretation... and of course a totally selective response.

    I'll ask the question again, but I'll try and keep it simple this time for you.

    Who's more callous? Don for questioning the details of this woman's story? Or this woman's friends, family, and coworkers at the Obama campaign for not getting together to raise $5k to help her out?

    Liberals (yourself included) say we (the collective) failed her. I say, her family, friends, and people at the OBAMA CAMPAIGN let her down.
  • ldhendrix
    The following is my personal e-mail response to Don following his initial letter. The information posted on this page further reinforces my original suspicions.

    "I would like to see the evidence that this person's cause of death was "lack of health insurance". You see, I could also say that my first wife died of breast cancer and we had no health insurance at the time, but that is not the whole story.

    "I paid for the initial visits and surgery when things appeared "simple", but when the disease was discovered to be in advance stage and follow-up was hopelessly beyond our ability to pay, the local hospital immediately referred us to a couple of world class institutions and provided financial aid application forms. Upon completion of some extra paperwork and provision of financial statements, we were accepted for a full aggressive treatment at M.D. Anderson where we were responsible for a few relatively minor co-pays.

    "Her eventual death was the result of the nature of the disease and late discovery, and had nothing to do with the lack of health care or lack of insurance coverage. I have no idea to this day whether the funding was provided by private, public, or a combination of these sources. All I am sure of is that programs like this must surely be available to a wide variety of people including Obama campaign workers."
  • FatTriplet3
    Did you see this line in the comments: "I campaigned for The One and all I got was this stupid T-shirt".
  • Howard Embee
    What more is there to say. You covered it precisely and accurately.

    If we want to be free people including the right to make our own personal decisions, we certainly do not want an intrusive government making those decisions for us. The problem is the mindset of the elected politicians who are elitists and usurp powers never intended.

    Ms, Shouse made a bad decision. I don't see in all the discussion that she asked for anyone else to intervene in her affairs. What she did is her business, not mine, and certainly none of Mr. Obama's. His commentary was pure hype meant to appeal to soft headed voters.

    The bottom line to all of this is: It has nothing to do with health care and everything to do with more political control over the American people. Be forewarned. When BHO has his way with health care, the media, and disarms American citizens, he will have taken all the steps necessary to declare himself dictator for life.

    The American voter simply has to be the stupidest thing ever bred.
  • ArrowSmith
    What even compared to the average European/Asian/African/South American voter? Come on, we might just have the best breed around!
  • Curious
    Exactly! It's not the voters, the problem is democracy itself.
  • jorod
    These are the kind of nut cases that the liberals take for normal people. It's kind like the screwballs in "Nickel and Dimed" that Ms. Ehrenreich always writes about.
  • vidyohs
    It is exactly what I said to No-Red-Bull on a previous post, socialist screw up and expect others to clean it up for them.

    They simply know no other way.

    Shouse, could act like she did in full anticipation that some one would attempt to rescue her from her own stupidity or bad decisions.

    Tough for her that that concern came to late, she should have taken better care as Don pointed out.

    BTW, IT IS SATURDAY NIGHT, WHAT ARE ALL YOU YOUNG PEOPLE DOING HERE RAGGING AT EACH OTHER? Go party, get drunk, leave this passive crap to us old guys.
  • muirgeo
    Yeah 40,000 people dying a year from lack of access to care often even when they have insurance. You dumb sick SOB... you need a doctor.
  • brotio
    Why do you care?

    Millions of Americans intentionally starved in the name of righteous rule is irrelevant to you.

    You have proved that you have no concern for persons. Therefore, it must be the desire for more government that compels you.
  • theorlonater
    You still tout the 40,000 number?
  • The Dirty Mac
    So, if Obamacare had passed everyone would have insurance. But you're saying that people with insurance don't have access to care anyway. No wonder that piece of shit was unpopular.
  • crawdad
    Once again, besides the 40,000 being questionable, the medical profession itself admits that approximately 200,000 people die from medical mistakes and hospital acquired infections every year. So, name your poison.
  • floccina
    That 40,000k number is bogus but even if it were more people die from driving, do want to stop that? this woman was the equivalent of someone who dies due to being to cheap to fix their brakes!
  • true_liberal
    muirgeo, do you think you can perhaps make your point without name-calling and personal attacks?
  • ArrowSmith
    Muirbot - you've just been flagged. Hopefully it's not long before you get the permanent ban-hammer.
blog comments powered by Disqus

Previous post:

Next post: