None of the State's Business

I was thinking the same thing even though I was conflicted about whether or not the alledged perversion occuring there necessitated the state's involvement. And then someone that I trust told me that every one of those families that live on the compound are on the government's dole.

I don't know if this is true or not but the way it was conveyed to me, this sounded more than just plausible…it also caused me to lose my sympathies [though still conflicted because state power grabs are never a good thing; perhaps I'm too emotional in this instance because I disdain freeloaders].

Agreed, especially considering the original phone call turned out to be bogus.

If they are practicing polygamy, then by definition the children are in an unsafe situation. The more you find out about this group the harder it is to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Keith,

I think the existence of state welfare, if it indeed does exist, is important. Would the compound have even been possible without some sort of subsidization?

Typical economic and libertarian theory suggests that free markets would minimize compounds like that, because gains from trade expose people to different cultures. If the members of the compound had be forced to deal with outsiders to survive, could their little micro-culture have been sustainable?

Does anyone know if welfare was present, or how the inhabitants paid for food and whatnot?

The anti-male bias that surrounds child abuse cases is disgusting.

Yup. Pretty much par for the course. Fathers are no more trustworthy than strangers in their eyes.

These cults exist for the singular purpose of providing children for old men to rape.

Provide evidence for this heinous accusation or shut up. You may have noticed nobody has been charged or arrested.

If the members of the compound had be forced to deal with outsiders to survive, could their little micro-culture have been sustainable?

See the Amish for a counterexample.

I know this sect isn't 'mainstream Mormon', but if they're anything like mainstream LDS, they have been preached to rely on oneself, and on one's church.

I'm sure they exist, but I've never met a Mormon who accepted welfare.

Should the government start making sweeps through various low income neighborhoods in countless cities taking the children away from other mothers living on welfare? Or is it only acceptable to kidnap children if they happen to be living in large groups in compounds with religious names?

Keith,

I do not condone government power grabbing; perhaps I was not clear. I simply stated that I lost my sympathies for the group…assuming that they really are on the dole. It is an emotional flaw on my part. A barrier that I cannot get beyond in an instance such as this one. Throw in what I think I know of the controlling nature of their own little society, how it's governed, the perversion, and the dubious nature of that particular voluntary lifestyle (if it indeed remains a volunatary arangement for many), and it's just too much.

Bob:

Read any of the many personal reports of people who were raised in these compounds and managed to escape. I understand that you have a human tendency to defend your peer group, but there have to be limits to tribalist loyalty.

As a libertarian there is a very short list of things I want the government to do. Stopping dirty old men from raping children is high on that list.

This is one of those cases where the unthinking, unblinking adherence to rigid principles makes libertarians look crazy in the eyes of the public.

Dave, et. al.,

Just a quick note on the Mormon welfare system.

It does exist. It is generally more practical than the government administered one because a great deal of the welfare in gifting of actual goods, food stuffs and wearing apparel, along with some cash subsidy. And, yes it is a good thing and comes from the titheing that is rigorously enforced by the Mormon church. Not requested, but enforced, demanded, and even coerced unto the death bed (anecdotal evidence).

However that makes it possible for the same "welfare" recipients to turn around and apply for the cash welfare system of the government because the foodstuffs aren't showing up on the recipients bottom line.

Quote from Bartman: "As a libertarian there is a very short list of things I want the government to do. Stopping dirty old men from raping children is high on that list."

Of course since nobody has been charged with any crime, then that's obviously what was happening. I don't know why society doesn't just rid itself of men altogether.

Keith:

If you are actually denying that, on these polygamist compounds, old men routinely have sex with 13 year old girls, some of whom are their own grand-daughters, then you exhibit powers of self-delusion that I cannot fathom. Perhaps you actually beleive that a 13 year-old girl who has never seen the outside world is capable of giving informed consent.

Or is it that you simply wish to become one of the lucky few dirty old men? I mean, who wouldn't want a fresh piece of jailbait every couple of years, right?

While I usually like Don's posts, I strongly disagree with this one.

Is this applause unconditional? Would have the state had any justification in intervening if they knew with certainty that underage girls were abused, forced to have children or to marry close relatives? To assume that the state has no right to interfere when a crime is happening, provided that this is a "private family matter", is quite unreasonable. This is not quite the case of Russ' pediatrician…

The court didn't strike down the actions of Texas' administration on the grounds of intruding into private family matters. Although it is proved beyond doubt that crimes occurred in *some* cases, there were no sufficient grounds to assume that crimes had been committed in *all* cases.

Vidyohs,

Thanks for the info. My circle of Mormon acquaintances isn't large, but those I've met have been pretty conservative and pretty adamant that they'll take care of their own because that was the church's responsibility.

I don't have many Left-leaning friends, and my Mormon friends share the same disdain for government welfare as I do. Again, I admit, my sample is limited.

Whenever I see these stories a phrase pops into my head, I either heard it once subconsciously and claim it as my own, or really did coin it:
Intentions were bountiful,
intelligence was bankrupt.

Polygamy as a means is not intended for the ends which is usually sited in these cases(child rape), it is an unintended consequence. We are familiar with unintended consequences, they always stem from authoritative decisions without proper analysis or evidence, very much like any religion including this group. The argument could be posed as previously suggested, to the Catholic institution, any institution that harbors child molesters should have its head removed(pope)from power and its practices scrutinized, but this is not the case, the pope remains and the masses flock to their parish. The data,however doesn't suggest a crisis, in the year 2007 there were 691 accusations of molestation, 80% of the priests accused are either dead or have left the priesthood, this leaves five remaining accused out of appx. 40k.(according to Bill Donohue:President, Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights)

What are the numbers on polygamist leaders? I would hate to make assumptions, I could wrongly think all polygamists were child rapists in the same way I could wrongly think all Catholic priests to be molesters.

Quote from Bartman: "If you are actually denying that, on these polygamist compounds, old men routinely have sex with 13 year old girls, some of whom are their own grand-daughters, then you exhibit powers of self-delusion that I cannot fathom. Perhaps you actually beleive that a 13 year-old girl who has never seen the outside world is capable of giving informed consent.

Or is it that you simply wish to become one of the lucky few dirty old men? I mean, who wouldn't want a fresh piece of jailbait every couple of years, right?"

You don't by chance work for the government of Texas, do you? When you can come with any substantiation for any of your allegations, let me know. The great state of Texas can't, but apparently that is irrelevant to you.

You hear the words "polygamy" and "compound" and "13 year old girl" and apparently all you can think of is throw them all in jail and to hell with details like probable cause and evidence.

And since I think things like probable cause and evidence are a little bit important, then obviously I'm just another monster waiting for my turn with a little girl.

Your rhetoric has simply devastated me.